A few decades ago, I served a mission in the American South. This meant that I got to have lots of conversations with Christians who thought Mormonism was wrong from the get-go simply because we have extra scriptures in addition to the Bible. The Bible itself says you can’t add to or take away, they would say, so that’s all there can be. A point I sometimes tried to make in response was that even accepting all the books in the Bible as inspired does not require you to believe that they are the only inspired books. In other words, I was trying to separate the writers of the Bible from the compilers of the Bible, to point out that the compilers may not have had access to every inspired book, or they may have even made mistakes in leaving some books out.
Needless to say, this argument never made much headway with anyone I talked to. I remembered it recently, though, because the distinction between writers and later compilers seems parallel to a distinction that is relevant to the current debate in the United States about whether we should tear down monuments to Confederate soldiers and politicians. When people make arguments against removing these monuments because “you’re erasing history,” it seems to me that they’re missing the distinction between the historical figures who are portrayed by the monuments and the later politicians and private groups who chose to honor them. Just as the compilation of the Bible was done years (centuries) after the writing, and by different groups of people, Confederate statues were commissioned years later, by people other than those portrayed. To tear down a statue of a Confederate figure is not to pretend they didn’t exist. It is to say that we do not want to honor what they fought for. It is not erasing the history of their existence. It is disagreeing with the later groups who decided that what the Confederate figures had done was of good report.
I’ve been kind of surprised to see some Mormons arguing that Confederate monuments should not come down. Here are some guesses as to why:
- In recent political history, American Mormons have reliably sided with the GOP on hot-button issues like abortion and gay marriage. We see our political allies defending something, so we defend it too.
- We worry that once a movement like this starts, it might end up coming uncomfortably close to home.
- Mormons tend to be supporters of the status quo, and toppling statues is most definitely going against the status quo.
- Although it has been several decades since we had Ezra Taft Benson saying in Conference that the Civil Rights movement was a tool of communism, beliefs like his are clearly alive and well among at least some Mormons.
It seems clear to me that the monuments should come down. I don’t think we should be honoring people who were so determined that they had a right to own black people that they seceded from the country and fought a protracted war to defend their supposed right.
I wonder if more Mormons who are arguing such statues should be kept up might not see the issue differently if we were discussing monuments erected to honor people who had persecuted Mormons. What if there were a statue celebrating Governor Boggs and his fabulous extermination order? Or perhaps one honoring the men who committed the Haun’s Mill Massacre for their willingness to defend their state from newly-arrived troublemakers? Or perhaps even one celebrating the killers of Joseph and Hyrum for their excellent marksmanship? Would it still be “erasing history” to remove such statues? If we as mostly white American Mormons can feel why we would want such statues removed, I think we can perhaps have more empathy for black people who find it painful to have their government celebrating people who fought for their supposed right to enslave people like them, and in many cases their direct ancestors.
“American Mormons have reliably sided with the GOP on hot-button issues like abortion and gay marriage.” In my experience, American Mormons haven’t just “reliably sided with the GOP”; many Mormons seem to be more Republican than they are LDS. Just look at the moral gymnastics they have to practice to justify their support for an abhorrent man like Donald J. Trump.
“Although it has been several decades since we had Ezra Taft Benson saying in Conference that the Civil Rights movement was a tool of communism, beliefs like his are clearly alive and well among at least some Mormons.”
I find it somewhat odd that you would put this here. You would think you would pick an example where time and evidence haven’t show President Benson (and those who believe his words) clearly and unambiguously correct.
After all, the leaders of Black Lives Matter have openly acknowledged that they are “trained Marxists” and that the guiding principles of their movement are Marxist in nature.^1 Further, from the core belief statement of Black Lives Matters (pulled from their own website)^2 they admit that they are working to “disrupt the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure” which cannot be squared with the Gospel in any way, yet is clearly in line with the Communist agenda of decreasing the role of the family as it acts as an intermediary between the State and the individual. Incidentally, that core believe statement even uses “comrades,” for Pete’s sake, so they don’t even try to hide their Marxism.
President Benson was prophetic in his description of the events of today — 53 years before they happened. Add in the rioting, looting, destruction of statutes of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Ulysses Grant, Christopher Columbus (remember when people mocked those concerned for “slippery slope” arguments), and on and on and it become more and more clear just how correct — how prophetic — President Benson was. Even if many of the protesters are good people (which President Benson noted would happen), and even if many of the aims of the Civil Rights Movement were and are good (which President Benson also noted), the movement is being led for nefarious purposes by those who hate and seek to destroy America.
Though President Benson wasn’t the first to describe the manipulation that the Communists are engaging in with the Civil Rights movement. That honor goes to Isaiah — “O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.”^3
^1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HgEUbSzOTZ8
^2 https://blacklivesmatter.com/what-we-believe/
^3 Isaiah 3:12
No thanks, Jonathan. You can take your conspiracy theories elsewhere.
“It seems clear to me that the monuments should come down.”
Well, it “seems clear” to others that they should stay. Only a vote will tell us how many of each type of person there is…. Rather than non-thinking mobs imposing their will upon all others.
Holy cow, Jeff G. *This* is the issue you’re going to come back to defend? Confederate monuments?
Hahaha. I missed you too. 🙂
Wrong. I too have zero respect for such confederate nonsense.
The difference between you and I – it would seem – is how much respect we have for democracy.
I’m glad to see that your ability to pat yourself on the back is still intact! I take it your love for democracy means that you would be on board with a Missouri monument to Boggs and the fabulous extermination order, assuming a majority of Missorians approved it.
In this post, I assume when you refer to Mormons defending Confederate statues, you’re referring Mormons who do not live in or grew up in the American South since the possible reasons you provided infer no cultural or historical connection to the American South. In respect to non-Southern Mormons, I would agree with your second and somewhat your third point, but not with the first or fourth. American Mormons do tend to support many issues supported by the GOP but have yet to show themselves to blindly follow every issue supported by the GOP. It’s also not clear to me what GOP followers outside of the American South think about this issue. Perhaps you have some references?
If you want to include why Southern Mormons continue to defend Confederate statues, that would have to include whole other reasons than what you’ve provided because of the cultural and historical connection. It would be a good question to ask simply for the sake of understanding the perspective of that population of members. It would also be good to ask that question without presuming to know the reasons or motivations of others and without assuming that just because you associate defending Confederate statues with other social issues that everyone else does too. I agree with Jeff G on this. Let’s not assume that we clearly understand an issue until we actually understand all sides of the issue.
If the State of Missouri decided to erect a statue of Governor Boggs (maybe there already is a statue, I don’t know) I would have no issue with that. After all, he was a Governor and did much more than just issue an order to exterminate Mormons. However, if the plaque at the bottom of the statue read “Governor Lilburn Boggs – Exterminator of Mormons”, then yes, I would be quite upset.
Thanks, DB. That’s a possibility I totally hadn’t considered.
DB, I don’t live in the South and never have so don’t claim to understand your culture there. Honest question: what are people adulating/honoring when they see these sculptures? To the rest of the country they appear like symbols of slavery and white supremacy. What do they represent culturally to you (white) folks there?
Laura,
I grew up in Virginia. While not born there, I can trace my ancestry to the First Families of Virginia. The only one of my ancestors that I have documented served in the Civil War served in a cavalry regiment for the Union (from Kentucky). I also have ancestors who were on both sides of the Mormon War in Missouri. I’ve learned to look at a lot of these historical issues from both sides.
I have friends whose families have lived in Virginia since Colonial times, and I’ve discussed the issue of Confederate statutes with them. They have ancestors who served in the Confederate Army, among the rank-and-file. They have consistently said (based on records such as letters and diaries) that their ancestors didn’t go to war to defend slavery, but to defend their homes. Most of their families were too poor to own slaves, often living in conditions barely better than slaves themselves. Their ancestors were proud to serve under people they considered to be great leaders in defense of their homes.
To them, many of those statues represent efforts at reconciliation, often erected on the anniversary of key battles. They see statues to people like Jackson and Lee as tributes to not just those men, but to all the men who served under them. Tearing down those statues is seen as disrespectful to all the men who served in defense of their homes.
I’m not saying that I agree with them, but it is a valid viewpoint that needs to be understood and not dismissed.
In the interests of harmony and unity in our country, I would hope that we do not debate this issue much longer. We need to come together as Americans (regardless of race, sex, age, or religion) and discuss how to solve the critical issues we face now: COVID-19, a recession, and systemic racism.
FYI it is a common explanation that the Civil War was fought over the moral issue of slavery. In fact, it was the economics of slavery and political control of that system that was central to the conflict. Considering these central issues, Laura asked a thoughtful question: What do [the Confederate monuments, flags) represent culturally to you (white) folks [in the South]? She is opening a dialog of understanding and not necessarily agreement, a dialog of respect for others and not of “tearing down.”
Perhaps we should remind ourselves also what the causes of the secession were that led to the Confederate States of America and these Confederate monuments and flags . A good starting point to help promote understanding how contemporary events are rooted in the causes of the Civil War can be found at https://www.pbs.org/opb/historydetectives/feature/causes-of-the-civil-war/
Thank you all for your comments. Please know that I am not trying to defend anyone or anything. I simply want to understand the other person before I start making changes or finding a solution to the issues. After all, tearing down a monument or flag does not eliminate the ideas it represents. Such action may entrench them deeper.
For many of these monuments, you can find details about why they we’re erected: who paid for them, why they did so, the speeches at their installation, etc. I find it important context to consider.
By the same token, you can read the articles of secession from the states that formed the Confederacy. They were very clear about what was important to them (or at least their leaders). While the current version of the rationale has changed somewhat, I don’t think you can ignore the reasons they gave for the actions they were taking.
Laura, LJ gave a very good explanation and I have little to add to that. When white Southerners say that icons of the Confederacy, such as leaders, flags, battlefields, etc., do not represent pro-slavery or the oppression of blacks to them, they are being genuinely honest. Yes, the Civil War was fought over slavery, but for most white Southerners, the Confederacy represents their Southern homeland, their history and culture, which includes a whole lot more than just slavery. The Confederacy is history, it is culture, it is who Southerners were – good, bad, and ugly.
I’m sorry, it was Observer who gave the very good explanation.
Yes, WWII was fought over Fascism, but for most RightWing Germans, the Third Reich represents their fatherland, their history and culture, which includes a whole lot more than just Fascism. The Third Reich is history, it is culture, it is who Nazis were – good, bad, and ugly.
Doesn’t look good.
It is simplistic to think the Civil War was simply a war fought by Americans FOR slavery against those who were AGAINST slavery..
THESE United States: Pre-Civil War, citizens were first and foremost citizens of the State in which they lived. They were “Virginian” primarily, “American” tertiary. The States were autonomous, but agreed to help each other for common defense. The Federal government was severely limited in power and ability.
Many who fought for the South were not plantation owners, nor were they slave owners. Most felt it was a duty, and their honor depended on fighting for their state.
George Pickett, like Robert E. Lee, was a Virginian. Pickett was in the US military, stationed in Washington State. Eventually, he resigned his post and fought for Virginia on the side of the Confederates. He was neither racist (having married a native-american), nor slave owner. Yet he felt it was his duty…and his honor…to fight for Virginia.
As it pertains to flags…what most Americans identify as the Confederate Flag is not the Confederate Flag. It is General Robert E. Lee’s battle flag.
When it comes to monuments, to flags, or to any other icon, people read into them for their own purposes. To me, they are historical items that initiate conversation and learning. They represent a lot of different ideas and values. Some I agree with, some I don’t. But because I disagree with the view, does not give me the right to violence. It does not allow me to disrespect property.
Defacing a statue, tearing it down, burning it…is no different than torching Planned Parenthood.
I may believe in family values, and see sexual affairs as wrong, but that doesn’t give me the right to torch the Clinton Library.
Keep in mind Mathew 7:20 – Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
I do not recall any biblical passage, or other scripture, that mentions Jesus defacing Roman property,
I must have missed the part where He desecrated property of the pharisees and saducees.
I abhor slavery and there are issues about equality, and racism, worthy of discussion.
But the actions of the people who are out vandalizing and committing crimes, determines who, and what, they are.
I will not stand, nor will I publicly (or privately) support, those who act in this manner.
And if Missouri decided to erect a statue of Boggs…fair enough. It is their right…and serves as a conversation piece…not a cause for petulant acts by a group who disagree with some of Boggs actions or beliefs.
Thanks for sharing your priorities of property over people, Nick. Your lack of empathy is staggering.