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	<title>Comments on: Why Are There No Women At This Party?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/12/29/where-was-eve-in-the-pre-mortal-existence/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/12/29/where-was-eve-in-the-pre-mortal-existence/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 06 Sep 2010 11:47:02 -0600</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Kiskilili</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/12/29/where-was-eve-in-the-pre-mortal-existence/#comment-57640</link>
		<dc:creator>Kiskilili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 22:38:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=3418#comment-57640</guid>
		<description>:) Ha--I voted for you as best commenter!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p> <img src='http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Ha&#8211;I voted for you as best commenter!</p>
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		<title>By: Ms. Jack Meyers</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/12/29/where-was-eve-in-the-pre-mortal-existence/#comment-57639</link>
		<dc:creator>Ms. Jack Meyers</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 21:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=3418#comment-57639</guid>
		<description>I would read it, Kiskilili. I voted for you for best blogger at the Niblets! (With much love to the rest of the ZDs who were nominated.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would read it, Kiskilili. I voted for you for best blogger at the Niblets! (With much love to the rest of the ZDs who were nominated.)</p>
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		<title>By: Kiskilili</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/12/29/where-was-eve-in-the-pre-mortal-existence/#comment-57637</link>
		<dc:creator>Kiskilili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 17:24:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=3418#comment-57637</guid>
		<description>I could of course pose a &quot;father reaching question question&quot; laying out all my feminist concerns at once. But my sad experience has been that people don&#039;t read posts that are more than a thousand pages long.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I could of course pose a &#8220;father reaching question question&#8221; laying out all my feminist concerns at once. But my sad experience has been that people don&#8217;t read posts that are more than a thousand pages long.</p>
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		<title>By: SUNNofaB.C.Rich</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/12/29/where-was-eve-in-the-pre-mortal-existence/#comment-57634</link>
		<dc:creator>SUNNofaB.C.Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 06:38:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=3418#comment-57634</guid>
		<description>or you could pose a farther reaching question question such as &quot;why didn&#039;t women throw this party&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>or you could pose a farther reaching question question such as &#8220;why didn&#8217;t women throw this party&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: SUNNofaB.C.Rich</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/12/29/where-was-eve-in-the-pre-mortal-existence/#comment-57633</link>
		<dc:creator>SUNNofaB.C.Rich</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 Jan 2010 06:29:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=3418#comment-57633</guid>
		<description>(in response to the question posed by this post) aside from the obvious pandering/meddling, i&#039;m sure women were at the same place in this &quot;pre-mortal existence&quot; as they naturally are now.   Why was Jesus a dude anyways?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(in response to the question posed by this post) aside from the obvious pandering/meddling, i&#8217;m sure women were at the same place in this &#8220;pre-mortal existence&#8221; as they naturally are now.   Why was Jesus a dude anyways?</p>
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		<title>By: Kiskilili</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/12/29/where-was-eve-in-the-pre-mortal-existence/#comment-57537</link>
		<dc:creator>Kiskilili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 00:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=3418#comment-57537</guid>
		<description>Which only makes it odder, rather than less odd, that Eve is derivative of and contingent on Adam and has no clear pre-existent status.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Which only makes it odder, rather than less odd, that Eve is derivative of and contingent on Adam and has no clear pre-existent status.</p>
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		<title>By: Left Field</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/12/29/where-was-eve-in-the-pre-mortal-existence/#comment-57521</link>
		<dc:creator>Left Field</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 13:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=3418#comment-57521</guid>
		<description>It may be that a strict reading of J in isolation, does not explicitly depict Eve&#039;s spirit.  You seem to be arguing that J not only fails to depict Eve&#039;s spirit, but that it actually precludes it, that the account is wholly inconsistent with the concept of Eve having a soul.  I&#039;m afraid I don&#039;t see that at all.  In any case, Latter-day Saints participating in the temple ritual do not read the account either strictly or in isolation.  

Even if J is read in isolation, Latter-day Saints bring to the table a the prominent teaching that we all have preexistent spirits.  Even the animals of the J account have spirits by LDS tradition.  The idea of &quot;soulless&quot;  humans or even &quot;soulless&quot; animals is completely foreign to Mormonism.  Mormons will read souls into the account, whether they are specifically mentioned or not.  

But more importantly, the account is not presented in isolation.  The temple ritual as you say, weaves together components of P, J, the Book of Moses, and other sources.  There is no indication that we will or are expected to tease apart the various sources and then consider them in isolation.  In fact, the ritual places the J account in context with P in such a way as to make it &lt;em&gt;abundantly&lt;/em&gt; clear that both Adam and Eve have spirits.  The echo of &quot;we will put into them their spirits&quot; has barely died down before both Adam and Eve appear with clear evidence of having spirits.  It is inconceivable that the Creators simply changed their mind while walking into the Creation Room.  We see Adam become animated when he receives his spirit, and so when Eve walks into the room fully animated a moment later, the &lt;em&gt;clear&lt;/em&gt; implication is that her body has also been animated by her spirit as we have heard &lt;em&gt;only moments before&lt;/em&gt; that she would be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It may be that a strict reading of J in isolation, does not explicitly depict Eve&#8217;s spirit.  You seem to be arguing that J not only fails to depict Eve&#8217;s spirit, but that it actually precludes it, that the account is wholly inconsistent with the concept of Eve having a soul.  I&#8217;m afraid I don&#8217;t see that at all.  In any case, Latter-day Saints participating in the temple ritual do not read the account either strictly or in isolation.  </p>
<p>Even if J is read in isolation, Latter-day Saints bring to the table a the prominent teaching that we all have preexistent spirits.  Even the animals of the J account have spirits by LDS tradition.  The idea of &#8220;soulless&#8221;  humans or even &#8220;soulless&#8221; animals is completely foreign to Mormonism.  Mormons will read souls into the account, whether they are specifically mentioned or not.  </p>
<p>But more importantly, the account is not presented in isolation.  The temple ritual as you say, weaves together components of P, J, the Book of Moses, and other sources.  There is no indication that we will or are expected to tease apart the various sources and then consider them in isolation.  In fact, the ritual places the J account in context with P in such a way as to make it <em>abundantly</em> clear that both Adam and Eve have spirits.  The echo of &#8220;we will put into them their spirits&#8221; has barely died down before both Adam and Eve appear with clear evidence of having spirits.  It is inconceivable that the Creators simply changed their mind while walking into the Creation Room.  We see Adam become animated when he receives his spirit, and so when Eve walks into the room fully animated a moment later, the <em>clear</em> implication is that her body has also been animated by her spirit as we have heard <em>only moments before</em> that she would be.</p>
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		<title>By: Kiskilili</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/12/29/where-was-eve-in-the-pre-mortal-existence/#comment-57519</link>
		<dc:creator>Kiskilili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jan 2010 05:12:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=3418#comment-57519</guid>
		<description>What makes the statement you refer to less than clear is that just a few sentences later Michael is connected to a physical body following which Eve is formed from and for him without reference to her preexistent status. Unless I&#039;m misunderstanding, you&#039;re referring to an announcement Elohim makes which is an expansion of Genesis 1:26, apparently formerly with male pronouns exclusively (which I believe made the ceremony more coherent). But in any case this passage has obvious potential for indicating women are existentially on a par with men, as evidenced of course by the fact that it&#039;s the classic prooftext for Lilith, who refused to submit to Adam.

However, the actual depiction of woman&#039;s creation derives not from this verse (P), but from the J account. In fact, with some cross-pollination between strands, the basic pivot around which P and J are collapsed is the creation of humans. Where the announcement partially echoes P, the actual portrayal of the event is drawn basically from J, and Eve is created as Adam&#039;s derivative. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that Adam has been transplanted into the first account without Eve. Even you acknowledge that the assumption that Eve has a soul is based on extrapolation (i.e., it occurs &quot;backstage&quot;), which hardly constitutes clarity. The fact is that the two accounts of creation are not in agreement, and although we&#039;ve adopted portions of each, the film actually portrays an interpretation of J--not P--when it comes to the creation of woman.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What makes the statement you refer to less than clear is that just a few sentences later Michael is connected to a physical body following which Eve is formed from and for him without reference to her preexistent status. Unless I&#8217;m misunderstanding, you&#8217;re referring to an announcement Elohim makes which is an expansion of Genesis 1:26, apparently formerly with male pronouns exclusively (which I believe made the ceremony more coherent). But in any case this passage has obvious potential for indicating women are existentially on a par with men, as evidenced of course by the fact that it&#8217;s the classic prooftext for Lilith, who refused to submit to Adam.</p>
<p>However, the actual depiction of woman&#8217;s creation derives not from this verse (P), but from the J account. In fact, with some cross-pollination between strands, the basic pivot around which P and J are collapsed is the creation of humans. Where the announcement partially echoes P, the actual portrayal of the event is drawn basically from J, and Eve is created as Adam&#8217;s derivative. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that Adam has been transplanted into the first account without Eve. Even you acknowledge that the assumption that Eve has a soul is based on extrapolation (i.e., it occurs &#8220;backstage&#8221;), which hardly constitutes clarity. The fact is that the two accounts of creation are not in agreement, and although we&#8217;ve adopted portions of each, the film actually portrays an interpretation of J&#8211;not P&#8211;when it comes to the creation of woman.</p>
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		<title>By: Left Field</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/12/29/where-was-eve-in-the-pre-mortal-existence/#comment-57517</link>
		<dc:creator>Left Field</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 23:53:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=3418#comment-57517</guid>
		<description>I guess I&#039;m not following what you&#039;re saying.  Within a single sentence, we have the Creators stating that they will form both males and females and put into them their spirits.  If that&#039;s not a clear indication of the Creators forming both males and females and putting into them their spirits, then I&#039;m not sure exactly what kind of clear indication you&#039;re looking for.  

I don&#039;t really understand the significance of the shift between P and J here.  Does that take place in the middle of this sentence?  It&#039;s obviously been almost 20 years since I heard the previous version of the endowment (and I don&#039;t have the stomach to look it up on the internet), but I don&#039;t remember the sentence in question to have been revised.  I know lots of explicit references to Eve were added, but I&#039;m pretty sure this one was always there.  In any case, the current ritual has spirits going into both males and females.  

Now, I guess it&#039;s possible that when it came time to actually do it, the Creators changed their mind about the whole putting spirits into women thing, but I think it&#039;s still pretty strongly implied that they followed through.  Adam is said to become a living soul when he receives his spirit, the breath of life.  Eve obviously has the breath of life also, and is called the &quot;mother of all living.&quot;   Adam&#039;s body doesn&#039;t start living and breathing until it receives his spirit.  Since Eve is already living and breathing when she ritually appears on the scene, that would imply to me that her body must have also received her spirit, albeit backstage.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess I&#8217;m not following what you&#8217;re saying.  Within a single sentence, we have the Creators stating that they will form both males and females and put into them their spirits.  If that&#8217;s not a clear indication of the Creators forming both males and females and putting into them their spirits, then I&#8217;m not sure exactly what kind of clear indication you&#8217;re looking for.  </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t really understand the significance of the shift between P and J here.  Does that take place in the middle of this sentence?  It&#8217;s obviously been almost 20 years since I heard the previous version of the endowment (and I don&#8217;t have the stomach to look it up on the internet), but I don&#8217;t remember the sentence in question to have been revised.  I know lots of explicit references to Eve were added, but I&#8217;m pretty sure this one was always there.  In any case, the current ritual has spirits going into both males and females.  </p>
<p>Now, I guess it&#8217;s possible that when it came time to actually do it, the Creators changed their mind about the whole putting spirits into women thing, but I think it&#8217;s still pretty strongly implied that they followed through.  Adam is said to become a living soul when he receives his spirit, the breath of life.  Eve obviously has the breath of life also, and is called the &#8220;mother of all living.&#8221;   Adam&#8217;s body doesn&#8217;t start living and breathing until it receives his spirit.  Since Eve is already living and breathing when she ritually appears on the scene, that would imply to me that her body must have also received her spirit, albeit backstage.</p>
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		<title>By: Kiskilili</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/12/29/where-was-eve-in-the-pre-mortal-existence/#comment-57510</link>
		<dc:creator>Kiskilili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Jan 2010 19:59:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=3418#comment-57510</guid>
		<description>Good point, Left Field--but there&#039;s a disjunct in the text that&#039;s surely the result of the most recent revisions to it (and also the fact that the text is here shifting between P and J). Where Elohim used to talk about &quot;him&quot; he now speaks of &quot;them&quot;; however, when Adam is actually created the statement remains &quot;we will put into him his spirit . . . that he may become a living soul,&quot; where Eve is simply &quot;formed&quot; . . . after which God &quot;give[s]&quot; her to Adam. I don&#039;t find this a clear indication of female ensoulment at all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point, Left Field&#8211;but there&#8217;s a disjunct in the text that&#8217;s surely the result of the most recent revisions to it (and also the fact that the text is here shifting between P and J). Where Elohim used to talk about &#8220;him&#8221; he now speaks of &#8220;them&#8221;; however, when Adam is actually created the statement remains &#8220;we will put into him his spirit . . . that he may become a living soul,&#8221; where Eve is simply &#8220;formed&#8221; . . . after which God &#8220;give[s]&#8221; her to Adam. I don&#8217;t find this a clear indication of female ensoulment at all.</p>
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