I’m a Catholic who has been drawn into a certain lurid fascination with all things LDS – I have to say that threads like this blow my mind. It’s interesting that the post was on Mary, but the bulk of the comments have been about anti-Catholicism.. Interesting.

It used to be Mormon missionaries used to stun me tongue tied. See these nice, sharp, clean cut kids professing things so incredible that my mind begins to warp, if ever so slightly.. The reverse Ton Tiki armada from Arabia to Peru, and the planet Kolob aside, the sheer cheek of the doctrine of the apostasy always left me mute. Do these kids understand how bloody offensive what they’re teaching is to a committed Catholic like me? The LDS are the restoration? That means that .. But no. They have no idea. This is just the echo of Know-Nothing anti- Catholicism old Joe soaked up in 1830 when the Irish started to hit upstate building the canal.. They aren’t the KKK..

Hold yer tongue Charles, They’re to likeable to spank.

So I’d juist keep my mouth shut, and go “The angel Moroni? Golden plates? Really..”

I’m getting cranky in my dotage, though.. The last two sets of missionaries I’ve talked to, I gently told them how it is. They were so cute.. They got all boo – boo faced and protested that the “abominable church” is unidentified. I was like, look, the Catholic (i.e., Universal) Church is the one established on Pentecost. For 1500 years everybody was doing the same thing, and now the Apostolic Churches (Catholic, Orthodox, Coptic, Armenian, Ethiopian, etc.) are stil all doing the same thing (7 sacraments, hyperdulia of Mary, veneration of saints, one priesthood rooted in the episcopate, etc, etc.) .. The West is Christian because of Catholicism.

But you want me to believe we went apostate at some vague undefined point, and that the apostles were teetotalers preaching celestial marriage? No dudes, that was Emmanuel Swedenbourg, not St. Paul.

The missionaries have been like “that’s deep stuff, man.. If I weren’t Mormon I’d be Catholic.. Can we shown you the plan of salvation?”

No kidding. I’ve had two missionaries profess admiration for the Church in six months. Good stuff, amusing times.. Yessir..

Well, in closing,

I have to say that in many ways the LDS do in fact jibe with us. I am constantly amused by the way some rabid fundamentalist prots attack both of our churches with such fervent ferocity.. As if Rome were Mordor, and Salt Lake Isengard or something, Makes me want to suggest a union of the towers, so we together can crush the followers of Jack Chick.. The missionaries can do the work of the Uruk Hai.. The Jesuits can offer up their cardinals as Wringwraiths.. All the nominal Catholics out there will be the hordes of Mordor..

It’ll be great fun.

Ah.. Yes. But the more I think about all this we’re modalsts or henotheists or something,” “God was once like us, we’ll someday be like God with our own planet,” “we don’t pray to Jesus but only in his name,” and “the cross is an evil instrument of torture,” so on and forth, makes it pretty clear that we’re not at all on the same page.

Jack Chick believes in the Incarnation and Trinity. He’s just as much a Christian as I am, in that minimal sense. That he won’t grant me the same in return is funny and sad, but whatever. I say he’s not thinking straight- one proof of that is the he doesn’t see that Mary, as the Theotokos (God Bearer) and Ark of the New Covenant and anti- Eve is just as much responsible for our salvation as is her Son. Without her assent, we would not have had His.

The thing about the LDS is that you all do not assent to any of that, and that is the crux of the Christian faith, as it was preached from the beginning. We’re not professing the same thing, at all.

I still love you all though. Especially those goofy missionaries. That’s how it is. Peace.

She herself was the product of a Virgin Birth so she was untainted by original sin, just as Christ was, so that she was worthy to give birth to God himself

The Immaculate conception refers only to the conception of Mary, not to the conception of Jesus. This is a very common misconception. I have gotten into arguments over this with other Catholics. The Immaculate conception basically refers to Mary being conceived without sin. Jesus was not the product of an Immaculate conception, being God (in the trinitarian view) he was already without sin. He was conceived of a virgin. Mary was not born of a virgin, she was conceived naturally.

What attributes do most Catholics or those who worship Mary give her or believe she possesses? Do they believe she agreed to be Jesus’s mother, that her faithfulness is paramount or is it other?

Although I’m pretty sure you didn’t mean that Catholics worship Mary, I do feel inclined to say this. Worshipping anyone or anything other than God is a sin in the Church. I’m sure that there are Catholics who engage in actions that appear as though they worship, seem to worship, or actually do worship Mary. The Church has no way of knowing what these individuals are doing or believing. Even if someone were to mention this during Confession, they would not be punished because Confession is completely confidential and mentioning this in Confession would mean that they truly intend to no longer engage in these actions or beliefs.
for stuff on Mary-
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt2art3p2.shtml
especially the “In Brief” section near the end
on saints and praying to them-
http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt1sect2chpt2art3p2.shtml
see paragraph 956
intercession is just the act of praying for another person. it happens on earth all the time
sorry for its length

But to turn a phrase we’re all familiar with it could probably be said of Mary that, no women has done for the salvation of men in this world, than any other woman that ever lived in it.

I don’t know what you do when you feel Mormon and non-Mormon at the same time.

Love that. I don’t know either.

we’re also quite leery of anything giving off a whiff of the divine feminine. Is this in part a reaction to the Catholic Mary, or do these roots run deeper in our tradition? Perhaps Heavenly Mother is taboo in our worship to some degree in response to the Catholic penchant for praying to Our Lady of Perpetual Help. Or, looked at from the other side, does our chariness toward Heavenly Mother prevent us from talking more about Mary since her status borders dangerously on the divine in other traditions?

Interesting to note the potential implications on ‘doctrine’ based on reactionary needs (theoretically at least) to differentiate Mormonism.

Finally, perhaps there are theological reasons for our lack of attention to Mary…. But for Mormons the mystery is not how Christ became man, but rather how Christ became God without first becoming man. All spirits come to Earth to obtain bodies; this aspect of Christ’s mission is downright ordinary. And it is this very aspect of Christ’s mission in which Mary participates most directly. Perhaps as we sideline the significance of the Incarnation, Mary’s significance recedes with it.

Very interesting to think about. And yet Mormon theology asserts that we have both Heavenly Father and Mother (at least one of each)– at least I think its safe to say that its considered somewhat doctrinal by a majority. So while Mormons aren’t overly concerned with how Christ became man and thus Mary’s great work of bringing Christ to be is less (or more, take your pick) fantastical in a sense; why still the uncomfortableness with anything remotely connected with a sort of divine feminine? (back to the differentiation again) A Heavenly Mother would certainly be so. Or at the very least, it would seem appropriate to venerate Mary for her extreme faith (faith enough to bear the Christ), in the same way that Nephi, or Moses, or Joseph are venerated for their great faith.

When I returned to college in the early 1990s, textbooks were just starting the change over to what was then called “gender inclusive language” meaning no more generic male pronouns. At the time I scoffed thinking why are they going to all this trouble and expense, I know “he” includes me as a woman. Then I read my first inclusive book and had the experiential hit that literally took my breath away. I felt included in a way I had not anticipated in the least, and this changed my perspective forever.

Now in my late 50s I have an increasing soul hunger for the feminine divine. I am a professional in a social science field finding myself ambivalent about the LDS church after all these years of intense activity. I am rethinking choices made primarily influenced by what was taught across the pulpit in the 1970s when I was in my 20s that shaped my decision to marry in the temple despite breaking my non-LDS parents’ hearts, my subsequent choice to drop out of college to have babies right away, the anti ERA amendment bandwagon pushed by church leaders at that time, the escalating emphasis on obedience over all (see Milgram and Zimbardo), the increasingly literal interpretations of biblical stories, etc. etc. etc. Prop 8, both the issue and the church’s political role were a last straw for me, but let’s NOT start a Prop 8 thread here. At my life stage I am re-evaluating so many LDS influenced choices – cultural and doctrinal – that began a trajectory leading me to this unexpected choice point: how do I stay, but also how do I leave the LDS church? I so wish the choice weren’t so polarized although I do realize that I could become a “third order Mormon”.

I believe that I would resonate with and be able to return to fuller activity if church lexicon and hymnals changed to inclusive language, if some form of feminine divine was included, and if women were truly regarded as equals. Rhetoric aside, and all due respect and gratitude to the late President Hinckley whose leadership style I greatly miss, the patriarchal structure of the LDS church simply does not make me feel equal even with a kind and respectful spouse like mine.

Regarding the Mormon Mary…. with polygamy named in doctrine as the heavenly ideal, how can we publicly honor one single Heavenly Mother? And with the disavowal from a legal standpoint and the related de-emphasis doctrinally of polygamy, how can we overtly worship many Heavenly Mothers? This appears to have no resolution (I invite readers to explore other options that may not occur to me). Moreover, with an all male leadership, how will leaders understand the need for female inclusiveness in language and doctrine, particularly the need for a feminine figure of worship as a model and spiritual guide?

I recently read, related to, and recommend Sue Monk Kidd’s “Dance of the Dissident Daughter” (warning, needed tighter editing but still worth the read) and the book she coauthored with her daughter “Traveling With Pomegranates” (better editing). She is a former Southern Baptist (another religious group with many similar beliefs and practices to Mormonism) whose spiritual journey led her to a deep search for the feminine divine. Some of that journey is reflected in her first novel “The Secret Life of Bees”. She ended up leaving Christianity after first leaving the Baptists joining the Episcopalian church .

To close, thank you all for thought provoking posts and responses. This blog feeds my soul. Thank you also for opening the forum to allow lurkers like me to join the discussion.

The parallel question for Mormons is: is Mary a Woman Who Knows?

Catholicism recognizes that saints have the power to intercede on behalf of mortals, to use their influence to sway God towards mercy towards sinners.
Saints, in Catholicism are held up as additional examples to believers of virtue and the reward for the righteous. It’s a common misconception that Saints themselves are worshiped like God. While there might have been some blurring of this in the Middle Ages, the modern Church tries hard to emphasize that it happened in the past but is not part of current doctrine (kind of like Mormons and polygamy).

Lots of Catholics don’t like to say that they “worship” Mary, but rather that they “adore” her or “venerate” her, in the Latin sense of those words. They, like other Christian demoninations, don’t want to be accused of idol worship or worshiping other gods (which, in theological history, tends to go badly if you look at the OT).

A common juxtapostition you find throughout history, art, theology, etc., is showing Christ and Mary to be the flip-side of Adam and Eve: just as the world was brought to sin by the latter, so it was saved by the former. And really, by that logic, I think that venerating her makes sense.

My mom has collected lots of Nativity scenes and subsequently I now have a nice collection of some diverse Nativity scenes. I am struck by the beauty of Mary, Joseph and Christ as a baby. I think I am struck by the enormity of their calling as parents, especially in the context of their youth and situation.

What attributes do most Catholics or those who worship Mary give her or believe she possesses? Do they believe she agreed to be Jesus’s mother, that her faithfulness is paramount or is it other?