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	<title>Comments on: The Grace of Community and Friendship</title>
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		<title>By: Zelophehad&#8217;s Daughters &#124; Bafflement at the Atonement</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/08/06/the-grace-of-community-and-friendship/#comment-55624</link>
		<dc:creator>Zelophehad&#8217;s Daughters &#124; Bafflement at the Atonement</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 Sep 2009 21:31:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=2552#comment-55624</guid>
		<description>[...] past month has been miraculous in unexpected ways. As I wrote recently, I&#8217;ve been thinking a lot about the Atonement. I realized this summer that the Atonement was probably the only thing that could heal my [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] past month has been miraculous in unexpected ways. As I wrote recently, I&#8217;ve been thinking a lot about the Atonement. I realized this summer that the Atonement was probably the only thing that could heal my [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Zelophehad&#8217;s Daughters &#124; My Realization from Sunstone (or How Sunstone Strengthened My Testimony)</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/08/06/the-grace-of-community-and-friendship/#comment-55205</link>
		<dc:creator>Zelophehad&#8217;s Daughters &#124; My Realization from Sunstone (or How Sunstone Strengthened My Testimony)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Sep 2009 21:14:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=2552#comment-55205</guid>
		<description>[...] I have recently found a renewed appreciation for the Mormon community, my worries about God were rolling around in the back of my mind as I went [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] I have recently found a renewed appreciation for the Mormon community, my worries about God were rolling around in the back of my mind as I went [...]</p>
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		<title>By: a wanderer</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/08/06/the-grace-of-community-and-friendship/#comment-54948</link>
		<dc:creator>a wanderer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 Sep 2009 15:31:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=2552#comment-54948</guid>
		<description>thanks for this, Seraphine.  I&#039;ve had many moment when I wished I had the courage to do as you did and have wondered how people would respond.  When I have been brutally honest, the reaction has sometimes been good and sometimes not so great.  Last year, the response was not so great and my ensuing battle with God has not been so great either.

I believe very much in the communal nature of the Atonement.  That is to say, I believe the only way to truly experience the Atonement is to connect with other people--both by receiving love and sustenance from them and by giving love and sustenance to them.  I liked Lynette&#039;s aside:
&lt;blockquote&gt;(And I just have to add that I think that raises some really interesting theological questions–we encourage people to go directly to God and get answers, and I certainly don’t think that’s a bad thing, but I wonder about its limitations. Given the extent to which our sense of God is inevitably intertwined with our experience with others, is it possible to even talk about grace in completely individualistic terms?)&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I very much believe that our sense of God is &quot;intertwined with our experience with others&quot;--so much so that I don&#039;t think it&#039;s possible to know God except by knowing and loving others.  For me, God cannot exist in isolation as an individual.

and after all of that, I have to say that I struggle with the communal aspect of God in spite of my belief in it.  Largely, I think, because I do not feel that I exist in community with those I encounter at church.  Not through any fault of theirs or mine; just by virtue of the stark differences between how I understand my world and how they understand my world.  Perhaps that *is* a fault on my part--maybe I perceive differences that do not exist or at least that do not or should not carry the weight I give them.  But I struggle finding my place in a community with which I find myself disagreeing so very often and on such very important questions.

In spite of my own difficulties finding acceptance in my church community, I am glad that you have found some in yours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>thanks for this, Seraphine.  I&#8217;ve had many moment when I wished I had the courage to do as you did and have wondered how people would respond.  When I have been brutally honest, the reaction has sometimes been good and sometimes not so great.  Last year, the response was not so great and my ensuing battle with God has not been so great either.</p>
<p>I believe very much in the communal nature of the Atonement.  That is to say, I believe the only way to truly experience the Atonement is to connect with other people&#8211;both by receiving love and sustenance from them and by giving love and sustenance to them.  I liked Lynette&#8217;s aside:</p>
<blockquote><p>(And I just have to add that I think that raises some really interesting theological questions–we encourage people to go directly to God and get answers, and I certainly don’t think that’s a bad thing, but I wonder about its limitations. Given the extent to which our sense of God is inevitably intertwined with our experience with others, is it possible to even talk about grace in completely individualistic terms?)</p></blockquote>
<p>I very much believe that our sense of God is &#8220;intertwined with our experience with others&#8221;&#8211;so much so that I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s possible to know God except by knowing and loving others.  For me, God cannot exist in isolation as an individual.</p>
<p>and after all of that, I have to say that I struggle with the communal aspect of God in spite of my belief in it.  Largely, I think, because I do not feel that I exist in community with those I encounter at church.  Not through any fault of theirs or mine; just by virtue of the stark differences between how I understand my world and how they understand my world.  Perhaps that *is* a fault on my part&#8211;maybe I perceive differences that do not exist or at least that do not or should not carry the weight I give them.  But I struggle finding my place in a community with which I find myself disagreeing so very often and on such very important questions.</p>
<p>In spite of my own difficulties finding acceptance in my church community, I am glad that you have found some in yours.</p>
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		<title>By: Ziff</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/08/06/the-grace-of-community-and-friendship/#comment-54285</link>
		<dc:creator>Ziff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Aug 2009 08:24:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=2552#comment-54285</guid>
		<description>I love this post, Seraphine. I haven&#039;t had to go through anything like the difficulties that it sounds like you&#039;ve suffered through. But even so, in my smaller struggles, I&#039;m often struck by the kindness of people around me who bear my burdens with me.

I particularly like that so many ward members came up to you after your testimony where you feared you had made yourself too vulnerable. I wonder if it&#039;s often the case that we&#039;re all too reticent to share our difficulties with one another, so when someone is actually willing to say they&#039;re struggling, everyone else is relieved to have the possibility of struggling even put out there. So it&#039;s like a public service to admit everything isn&#039;t going hunky dory for you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I love this post, Seraphine. I haven&#8217;t had to go through anything like the difficulties that it sounds like you&#8217;ve suffered through. But even so, in my smaller struggles, I&#8217;m often struck by the kindness of people around me who bear my burdens with me.</p>
<p>I particularly like that so many ward members came up to you after your testimony where you feared you had made yourself too vulnerable. I wonder if it&#8217;s often the case that we&#8217;re all too reticent to share our difficulties with one another, so when someone is actually willing to say they&#8217;re struggling, everyone else is relieved to have the possibility of struggling even put out there. So it&#8217;s like a public service to admit everything isn&#8217;t going hunky dory for you.</p>
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		<title>By: Seraphine</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/08/06/the-grace-of-community-and-friendship/#comment-54216</link>
		<dc:creator>Seraphine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 01:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ardis, the support I&#039;ve received both through comments on the blog and behind the scenes has had a significant impact on me. And even though there are limits to how my on-line readers/friends can interact with me, I do feel their love and concern. :)

Thanks, Angie.

Lynnette, this past spring I would have had a difficult time accepting much of anything directly from God. I&#039;m not sure I believed He was out to get me, but He just seemed so distant and mysterious and strange (in ways I&#039;ve never felt before). I&#039;m guessing my relationship with God will never be quite the same again (which may not be a bad thing), but I definitely think the kindness of others has grounded me in such a way to feel more comfortable confronting that strangeness and figuring out how it might still be possible to have a personal relationship with Him.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ardis, the support I&#8217;ve received both through comments on the blog and behind the scenes has had a significant impact on me. And even though there are limits to how my on-line readers/friends can interact with me, I do feel their love and concern. <img src='http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Thanks, Angie.</p>
<p>Lynnette, this past spring I would have had a difficult time accepting much of anything directly from God. I&#8217;m not sure I believed He was out to get me, but He just seemed so distant and mysterious and strange (in ways I&#8217;ve never felt before). I&#8217;m guessing my relationship with God will never be quite the same again (which may not be a bad thing), but I definitely think the kindness of others has grounded me in such a way to feel more comfortable confronting that strangeness and figuring out how it might still be possible to have a personal relationship with Him.</p>
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		<title>By: Seraphine</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/08/06/the-grace-of-community-and-friendship/#comment-54215</link>
		<dc:creator>Seraphine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 01:31:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=2552#comment-54215</guid>
		<description>Thanks, m&amp;m. I&#039;m not sure if I have a stronger sense that God is aware of me. But I do feel the pain of feeling betrayed by God lessening through these experiences, and it definitely seems like a stronger possibility than it did a few months ago that I&#039;m going to figure out how to trust God again.

Thanks, Kaimi. And I agree--the LDS community can be pretty amazing when it&#039;s working right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, m&#038;m. I&#8217;m not sure if I have a stronger sense that God is aware of me. But I do feel the pain of feeling betrayed by God lessening through these experiences, and it definitely seems like a stronger possibility than it did a few months ago that I&#8217;m going to figure out how to trust God again.</p>
<p>Thanks, Kaimi. And I agree&#8211;the LDS community can be pretty amazing when it&#8217;s working right.</p>
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		<title>By: Seraphine</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/08/06/the-grace-of-community-and-friendship/#comment-54214</link>
		<dc:creator>Seraphine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Aug 2009 01:06:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=2552#comment-54214</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Eve. I&#039;ve had a variety of experiences in church communities (including negative ones), so I realize it doesn&#039;t always work this way. But I will say I&#039;m really, really grateful that at the moment things I&#039;m in my particular communities.

Phannie, I agree that some wards have a hard time with honesty or complicated narratives. I&#039;m usually hesitant to be as honest as I was because the outcome isn&#039;t always positive.  I&#039;m feeling pretty lucky to be in my ward right now (even though my bishop wanted to talk to me this past week because I think he was kinda concerned after my testimony and wanted to see if there was something he could do to resolve my issues).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Eve. I&#8217;ve had a variety of experiences in church communities (including negative ones), so I realize it doesn&#8217;t always work this way. But I will say I&#8217;m really, really grateful that at the moment things I&#8217;m in my particular communities.</p>
<p>Phannie, I agree that some wards have a hard time with honesty or complicated narratives. I&#8217;m usually hesitant to be as honest as I was because the outcome isn&#8217;t always positive.  I&#8217;m feeling pretty lucky to be in my ward right now (even though my bishop wanted to talk to me this past week because I think he was kinda concerned after my testimony and wanted to see if there was something he could do to resolve my issues).</p>
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		<title>By: Lynnette</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/08/06/the-grace-of-community-and-friendship/#comment-54151</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynnette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 21:05:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=2552#comment-54151</guid>
		<description>Good thoughts, Seraphine.  In looking back at some situations in my life, I&#039;ve wondered whether there might be times when God actually couldn&#039;t communicate with me, couldn&#039;t get through to me, because of where I was emotionally and spiritually.   I&#039;m not even thinking of times when I was avoiding God (though I&#039;ve certainly had those!)--I&#039;m thinking of times when I was begging him for an answer, and intensely frustrated by his apparent silence.  Since my tendency (as you know) is to fall into a default position of, &quot;God is mean and out to get me,&quot; I think I&#039;ve at times needed to experience kindness and acceptance from other human beings to have any faith that the universe isn&#039;t ultimately malevolent; God couldn&#039;t tell me that because I wasn&#039;t in a place to hear or believe it.  

(And I just have to add that I think that raises some really interesting theological questions--we encourage people to go directly to God and get answers, and I certainly don&#039;t think that&#039;s a bad thing, but I wonder about its limitations.  Given the extent to which our sense of God is inevitably intertwined with our experience with others, is it possible to even talk about grace in completely individualistic terms?)

Your post also reminded me that for all my complaining, the church community has done some amazing things for me in my life--not least of which has been connecting me to people who&#039;ve really made a difference when I&#039;ve needed it.  Thanks for reminding me of that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good thoughts, Seraphine.  In looking back at some situations in my life, I&#8217;ve wondered whether there might be times when God actually couldn&#8217;t communicate with me, couldn&#8217;t get through to me, because of where I was emotionally and spiritually.   I&#8217;m not even thinking of times when I was avoiding God (though I&#8217;ve certainly had those!)&#8211;I&#8217;m thinking of times when I was begging him for an answer, and intensely frustrated by his apparent silence.  Since my tendency (as you know) is to fall into a default position of, &#8220;God is mean and out to get me,&#8221; I think I&#8217;ve at times needed to experience kindness and acceptance from other human beings to have any faith that the universe isn&#8217;t ultimately malevolent; God couldn&#8217;t tell me that because I wasn&#8217;t in a place to hear or believe it.  </p>
<p>(And I just have to add that I think that raises some really interesting theological questions&#8211;we encourage people to go directly to God and get answers, and I certainly don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s a bad thing, but I wonder about its limitations.  Given the extent to which our sense of God is inevitably intertwined with our experience with others, is it possible to even talk about grace in completely individualistic terms?)</p>
<p>Your post also reminded me that for all my complaining, the church community has done some amazing things for me in my life&#8211;not least of which has been connecting me to people who&#8217;ve really made a difference when I&#8217;ve needed it.  Thanks for reminding me of that.</p>
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		<title>By: Angie</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/08/06/the-grace-of-community-and-friendship/#comment-54148</link>
		<dc:creator>Angie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Aug 2009 04:59:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=2552#comment-54148</guid>
		<description>What you described is exactly what I have experienced, also.  Keep wrestling and working through this.  It is the most valuable of all struggles -the sincere search for the truth about God.  You are very important to God.  That is why He inspires so many of His sons and daughters to help you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What you described is exactly what I have experienced, also.  Keep wrestling and working through this.  It is the most valuable of all struggles -the sincere search for the truth about God.  You are very important to God.  That is why He inspires so many of His sons and daughters to help you.</p>
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		<title>By: Ardis Parshall</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/08/06/the-grace-of-community-and-friendship/#comment-54147</link>
		<dc:creator>Ardis Parshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Aug 2009 23:48:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=2552#comment-54147</guid>
		<description>Thanks for counting your readers here as members of your community, sustaining you as well as we can from a distance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for counting your readers here as members of your community, sustaining you as well as we can from a distance.</p>
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