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	<title>Comments on: Theory and Practice</title>
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		<title>By: Jo</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/04/23/theory-and-practice/#comment-54076</link>
		<dc:creator>Jo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Jul 2009 04:58:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1753#comment-54076</guid>
		<description>Kiskilili:  I liked your description:
 how we make religious sense of the “variety of religious experience”–the fact that God (reportedly) reveals to some people that patriarchy is divine and to others that it’s nonsense, for example. For my own life I have to trust my own experience and my own conscience.&quot;
In the Hebrew Bible, forms of the word  faith were commonly described as &quot;bth&quot; or trust.  To put your trust in the Lord is to live by your faith and be assured of things hoped for, even against the convictions of others.  Psychologist&#039;s would attribute your &quot;hope and trust&quot; as projection, because one tends to project their attributes onto others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kiskilili:  I liked your description:<br />
 how we make religious sense of the “variety of religious experience”–the fact that God (reportedly) reveals to some people that patriarchy is divine and to others that it’s nonsense, for example. For my own life I have to trust my own experience and my own conscience.&#8221;<br />
In the Hebrew Bible, forms of the word  faith were commonly described as &#8220;bth&#8221; or trust.  To put your trust in the Lord is to live by your faith and be assured of things hoped for, even against the convictions of others.  Psychologist&#8217;s would attribute your &#8220;hope and trust&#8221; as projection, because one tends to project their attributes onto others.</p>
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		<title>By: crazywomancreek</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/04/23/theory-and-practice/#comment-53786</link>
		<dc:creator>crazywomancreek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 17:15:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1753#comment-53786</guid>
		<description>kiskilili- can you send me your email?  sarasbreadco at gmail</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>kiskilili- can you send me your email?  sarasbreadco at gmail</p>
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		<title>By: Kiskilili</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/04/23/theory-and-practice/#comment-53337</link>
		<dc:creator>Kiskilili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 19:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1753#comment-53337</guid>
		<description>Those are all good questions, jane. I do wonder how patriarchal doctrine shapes our attitudes, as both men and women, even without our awareness. 

You raise some great questions, Naismith. On the one extreme we have people taking the position that any observable difference justifies any difference in treatment (people observe that men and women have different brains and then conclude men should have exclusive access to x, without even making a case based on the particularities of the observed differences!). On the other extreme are those who would claim no observable difference justifies any difference in treatment, which is also untenable (in general, not just with regard to men and women). 

Although I haven&#039;t completely sorted out what I think, I lean toward the idea that (a) not only should women have access to opportunities men are granted, (b) provisions should be made in those opportunities for childcare (which I think is generally the issue for women)--i.e., they should be adapated to women&#039;s needs--but then (c) those provisions for childcare should also be available to men. I think Ziff&#039;s tenure clock might stop if he (and his wife) have a baby, for example, and I&#039;m sure he appreciates it when men&#039;s restrooms have changing tables.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Those are all good questions, jane. I do wonder how patriarchal doctrine shapes our attitudes, as both men and women, even without our awareness. </p>
<p>You raise some great questions, Naismith. On the one extreme we have people taking the position that any observable difference justifies any difference in treatment (people observe that men and women have different brains and then conclude men should have exclusive access to x, without even making a case based on the particularities of the observed differences!). On the other extreme are those who would claim no observable difference justifies any difference in treatment, which is also untenable (in general, not just with regard to men and women). </p>
<p>Although I haven&#8217;t completely sorted out what I think, I lean toward the idea that (a) not only should women have access to opportunities men are granted, (b) provisions should be made in those opportunities for childcare (which I think is generally the issue for women)&#8211;i.e., they should be adapated to women&#8217;s needs&#8211;but then (c) those provisions for childcare should also be available to men. I think Ziff&#8217;s tenure clock might stop if he (and his wife) have a baby, for example, and I&#8217;m sure he appreciates it when men&#8217;s restrooms have changing tables.</p>
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		<title>By: Naismith</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/04/23/theory-and-practice/#comment-53332</link>
		<dc:creator>Naismith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 10:49:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1753#comment-53332</guid>
		<description>Seraphine, thanks for posting the links.  I appreciated them at the time, and think those issues are not brought up near enough in discussions like this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seraphine, thanks for posting the links.  I appreciated them at the time, and think those issues are not brought up near enough in discussions like this.</p>
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		<title>By: Juliann</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/04/23/theory-and-practice/#comment-53328</link>
		<dc:creator>Juliann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 28 Apr 2009 03:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1753#comment-53328</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;As far as sexism, I dunno. I know I’ve said this before, but the university where I work is scrupulously non-sexist and as a result is very unfair and damaging to women, in my opinion. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Interesting observation Naismith. When the ERA was on the legislative table,  I was an ardent supporter until I heard convincing predictions of this very thing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>As far as sexism, I dunno. I know I’ve said this before, but the university where I work is scrupulously non-sexist and as a result is very unfair and damaging to women, in my opinion. </p></blockquote>
<p>Interesting observation Naismith. When the ERA was on the legislative table,  I was an ardent supporter until I heard convincing predictions of this very thing.</p>
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		<title>By: jane</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/04/23/theory-and-practice/#comment-53326</link>
		<dc:creator>jane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 21:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1753#comment-53326</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the links, Seraphine.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the links, Seraphine.</p>
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		<title>By: Seraphine</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/04/23/theory-and-practice/#comment-53325</link>
		<dc:creator>Seraphine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:49:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1753#comment-53325</guid>
		<description>Good questions, jane. I posed similar questions in my follow-up post :)

http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/02/10/separate-but-equal/

I think my sense is that while some feminists might take things too far on the &quot;we are not different&quot; side of things, I think the church generally takes things too far on the &quot;separate but equal&quot; side of things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good questions, jane. I posed similar questions in my follow-up post <img src='http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p><a href="http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/02/10/separate-but-equal/" rel="nofollow">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/02/10/separate-but-equal/</a></p>
<p>I think my sense is that while some feminists might take things too far on the &#8220;we are not different&#8221; side of things, I think the church generally takes things too far on the &#8220;separate but equal&#8221; side of things.</p>
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		<title>By: jane</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/04/23/theory-and-practice/#comment-53324</link>
		<dc:creator>jane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1753#comment-53324</guid>
		<description>Yes, I suppose that gets to the heart of most gender-related discussions on the bloggernacle.  When we see a practice or doctrine in the church that treats men and women differently, how do we judge whether it&#039;s a matter of treating women as lesser beings, or whether it&#039;s a matter of treating women as &quot;equal but different&quot; beings?    Every time I feel sure I&#039;m being discriminated against in this church, I can count on certain orthodox, contented Latter-day Saints telling me that I&#039;m not being discriminated against - I&#039;m just being treated differently because I am different.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I suppose that gets to the heart of most gender-related discussions on the bloggernacle.  When we see a practice or doctrine in the church that treats men and women differently, how do we judge whether it&#8217;s a matter of treating women as lesser beings, or whether it&#8217;s a matter of treating women as &#8220;equal but different&#8221; beings?    Every time I feel sure I&#8217;m being discriminated against in this church, I can count on certain orthodox, contented Latter-day Saints telling me that I&#8217;m not being discriminated against &#8211; I&#8217;m just being treated differently because I am different.</p>
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		<title>By: Seraphine</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/04/23/theory-and-practice/#comment-53323</link>
		<dc:creator>Seraphine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:34:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1753#comment-53323</guid>
		<description>jane, you&#039;ll find that many feminists agree that &quot;equality&quot; doesn&#039;t mean &quot;sameness.&quot; Here&#039;s a post I made on the issue:

http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/01/31/exploring-a-misconception-about-feminism-difference-and-equality/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>jane, you&#8217;ll find that many feminists agree that &#8220;equality&#8221; doesn&#8217;t mean &#8220;sameness.&#8221; Here&#8217;s a post I made on the issue:</p>
<p><a href="http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/01/31/exploring-a-misconception-about-feminism-difference-and-equality/" rel="nofollow">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/01/31/exploring-a-misconception-about-feminism-difference-and-equality/</a></p>
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		<title>By: jane</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/04/23/theory-and-practice/#comment-53322</link>
		<dc:creator>jane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:07:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1753#comment-53322</guid>
		<description>Kiskilili - 

Your last comment (and also Caroline&#039;s recent post at ExII) got me started thinking a little further; I find myself wondering whether my husband and I have really managed to transcend our LDS upbringing to embrace truly egalitarian notions.  (This isn&#039;t quite what you asked, but I&#039;m just going off on a little personal tangent for a minute here - I hope you&#039;ll forgive me.).

Is my husband really, truly egalitarian, or is he just an incredibly nice guy?  I think it&#039;s possible that in his own mind, he&#039;s more an ultra-benevolent, laid-back, kindly patriarch than a true egalitarian.  He treats me in a way that  makes me feel respected, loved, and heard; we make decisions jointly, etc.  But I think he&#039;s probably absorbed some of the messages of our broader American culture and our specific LDS culture/doctrine, and I think it&#039;s possible he  feels some sense of unique or disproportionate responsibility for the spiritual and temporal well-being of our family.   If that&#039;s true, does such an attitude benefit or harm our relationship and family?  I think I could argue either side of that one.

And I&#039;m sure I&#039;ve been influenced by our doctrine, too - even when I consciously reject or question  it. Maybe my propensity towards laziness, passiveness, buck-passing, shyness, self-consciousness, indecisiveness, etc. are tied up in a belief system that I&#039;m somehow less of a full agent than men are.  Or maybe those personality traits are due to other environmental and genetic factors and my own choices; I might have been very similar regardless of the doctrinal teachings I was exposed to during my life.  It&#039;s hard to tease out the causes of our behavior and thoughts.  Certainly our exposure to church teachings, our beliefs, our practices, and our relationships with God and each other are all very much intertwined.  

(Man, how awesome to try to pass the buck on my own buck-passing propensity...)

(And I second Newt&#039;s comment about the niceness of the ZD bloggers.  You guys  have managed to create a forum that feels respectful, kind, safe, and welcoming, which I really appreciate.)

(And I like Naismith&#039;s points, too - sometimes I want equality, but often I want special consideration for special circumstances.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kiskilili &#8211; </p>
<p>Your last comment (and also Caroline&#8217;s recent post at ExII) got me started thinking a little further; I find myself wondering whether my husband and I have really managed to transcend our LDS upbringing to embrace truly egalitarian notions.  (This isn&#8217;t quite what you asked, but I&#8217;m just going off on a little personal tangent for a minute here &#8211; I hope you&#8217;ll forgive me.).</p>
<p>Is my husband really, truly egalitarian, or is he just an incredibly nice guy?  I think it&#8217;s possible that in his own mind, he&#8217;s more an ultra-benevolent, laid-back, kindly patriarch than a true egalitarian.  He treats me in a way that  makes me feel respected, loved, and heard; we make decisions jointly, etc.  But I think he&#8217;s probably absorbed some of the messages of our broader American culture and our specific LDS culture/doctrine, and I think it&#8217;s possible he  feels some sense of unique or disproportionate responsibility for the spiritual and temporal well-being of our family.   If that&#8217;s true, does such an attitude benefit or harm our relationship and family?  I think I could argue either side of that one.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;m sure I&#8217;ve been influenced by our doctrine, too &#8211; even when I consciously reject or question  it. Maybe my propensity towards laziness, passiveness, buck-passing, shyness, self-consciousness, indecisiveness, etc. are tied up in a belief system that I&#8217;m somehow less of a full agent than men are.  Or maybe those personality traits are due to other environmental and genetic factors and my own choices; I might have been very similar regardless of the doctrinal teachings I was exposed to during my life.  It&#8217;s hard to tease out the causes of our behavior and thoughts.  Certainly our exposure to church teachings, our beliefs, our practices, and our relationships with God and each other are all very much intertwined.  </p>
<p>(Man, how awesome to try to pass the buck on my own buck-passing propensity&#8230;)</p>
<p>(And I second Newt&#8217;s comment about the niceness of the ZD bloggers.  You guys  have managed to create a forum that feels respectful, kind, safe, and welcoming, which I really appreciate.)</p>
<p>(And I like Naismith&#8217;s points, too &#8211; sometimes I want equality, but often I want special consideration for special circumstances.)</p>
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