She recounted the experience of a Middle-Eastern girl, who, out of respect for her body and Islam, began wearing traditional Islamic garb while attending school in the US.

This Middle-Eastern girl was inundated with make attention, especially from Middle Eastern men who loved her traditional veiled look, but also from American men.

Finally, the male attention become too much, and this girl abandoned her veils and took to wearing standard body-baring American clothes again, to fit in and not draw undue attention to herself…which she felt was immodest.

This highlights the problem I have with midesty as taught by the church: is it fitting in, or standing out?

We’re told to not be afraid to wear the only sleeved and backed prom dress; but also told not to draw undue attention to ourselves.

In the schools I went to in Northern California, “not standing out” would have required more piercings and fishnet than I wanted to wear.

Myself, I think it would be great fun to wear a gauzy veil and sari. I love those swirly fabrics and I think they’re more comfortable than non-stretchy jeans. But I’ve been informed it would be very wrong of me to wear that, and all the oppression of women it represents….and then also instructed a Good Mormon Woman always wears nylons, even in the summer when pregnant, and must always have the figure to wear unflattering, figure-revealing fashions.

I agree with those who say there’s less pressure at church to be modest, and more pressure to be attractive. (I think I’d be quite attractive in veils and saris, but apparently I’m only allowed to be pretty if I’m wearing jeans and trendy tops ).

This post reminds me—obliquely—of the earlier post about a woman who undresses alone in the woods. In the secret land of Amazonia, where no men live, how do modest women warriors dress? What constitutes modesty when no man is around?

For me it is what I feel comfortable in when I pray with the thought a Man might actually be paying attention.

I think there is something to the idea of how the way you dress compares to the rest of the culture. If you want to draw attention to yourself, cover-up less then the dominant culture. If you want to show that you care about modesty, cover up a little more. When I first moved to Puerto Rico, I was surprised with how little people covered up. After a while, I didn’t even notice it anymore.

So, in other words, yes, I do wear shorts above the knee occasionally, and the slit on my pencil skirt appraoches scandalous (lol), and I think that many people in bikinis have greater respect for their bodies than even I do. I dress modestly as a private act of devotion, and I don’t really mind if my skirt blows above the knee, or my shoulders show…it’s all about the inside.

So, I don’t dress modestly to send a message to other people any more than I say my morning prayers to send a message to other people.

Sorry, I often wax verbose. lol

You seem to view modesty along the lines of the way one dresses as a sign to others—compare it to a uniform, perhaps. It makes no difference (to you) whether the person viewing you is turned on by lust or whatever; you’re sending a clear message about what you think of your body, and that is what matters. Am I reading you right?

Kiskilili: and thank you! I agree with you: dressing modestly for the sole purpose of preserving the innocence of men is like hosting a “clean” web site so that pervs won’t find p*rn on the intarweb; if they want to see it, they’ll find it no matter what you do. There’s also something very very very silly about telling you to cover up so that the opposite sex won’t lust after you: simply put, a lustful imagination penetrates multiple layers of clothing.

I’m right with you on trying to figure this out. I’ll confess my motive: my oldest child is now 8. She’ll soon be getting the “modesty talks” at church and as we’ve all seen, some of those are…not helpful. But what do I want her to believe?! Up to this point, “Nobody wants to see your bum” has been a sufficiently good and honest reason for keeping covered, but it has obvious limitations moving forward.

Still, some of the cultural pressure of modesty has got to bear in mind other people’s expectations. If I showed up for high priest group and all the men had their shirts off I’d vomit, but if we had a pool party and I saw all the guys in only their swim trunks I’d have no problem.

I also find it problematic that we ordinarily frame modesty as something women do for men, or to protect themselves from men. If the concept is useful it has to be useful in a much broader framework.

One question I asked in the other thread that also went unanswered was: if modesty is just about preventing sexual thoughts in others, why would it be immodest for the RS sisters to hold activities in their birthday suits (assuming none were Lesbians)?

A related question I have: modesty seems to be about dressing more “conservatively” than the predominant culture (i.e. covering more). But we can’t both say Mormon women should dress more conservatively than other women, and that the purpose for this is to prevent Mormon men from having sexual thoughts. Because what in the name of Jupiter will the Mormon men do when they look at all the non-Mormon women in halter-tops and skorts, who through the Church’s own policy will be sporting more risque outfits than are permissible in Sunday School?

Or, looking at it another way: the US is not a predominantly Muslim nation, and it’s pretty acceptable for women to show their hair. So what is the purpose behind the headscarves that (some) American Muslim women wear? Surely not just to protect men from having sexually explicit thoughts upon seeing their hair. The sight of hair is everywhere.

Clearly our clothing choices send multiple messages (I, as someone who has been known to check out library books or grocery shop wearing pajama pants, think it sends an overabundance of messages). Maybe we need to start our discussions of modesty from this premise.

Now, on the subject of modesty, I was raised with the belief that modesty was a sign of power and respect for the physical body ( both men and women wearing the same length and coverage of garments…the garments showing respect for the body and being clothed with a new identity given to you by Christ.) In the ancient language of symbolism, more clothing meant more power. You can see it today in rap videos. Who has more power: the guy in the three piece suit or the half-naked women dancing around him. Here’s a clue-half naked women. Same thing with the part in the king and I where the hated king of Burma is depicted in nothing but a loin cloth to show “how poor is King of Burma!”

The reason, I was taught, that I should wear modest clothes was to show, almost ceremonial respect for our physical bodies, and to get used to garment length (garments also being modest in the not-prideful way. The way my parents described it- “It’s like those collars that priests in other faiths wear to show their promises and honor to god…except we wear ours under our clothes since it is a personal covenant and no one’s business but our own. We are not flaunting our righteousness, but using it as a personal reminder.”

I always thought that was the case, but it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that, for some reason, all the guys running around without shirts weren’t being punished or reprimanded for their apparent disrespect of their bodies and lack of respect for God’s covenants. After years and years of leaders and teachers and talks about how modesty is meant to prevent our apparently lust-inducing bodies from corrupting young men…who can’t help themselves, poor dears…it begins to sink in.
Whenever was asked to explain my modesty, I always refer to the first reason though, since it has always been my actual motivator…even in my young years.

I grew up with all sisters, and never had a problem walking around in various states of undress around them. Come to BYU though, and girls scream and run away at any site of female nudity. Females afraid of females. Ya, our bodies must be pretty scary. lol.

I found it even weirder to discover that if women were seen with their garments showing at all, they were decried, not for their apparent prideful flaunting of righteousness…but for some sort of sluttishness…even in jest.

Some things just don’t fit together.

I thought maybe JennS, 20, would open up this question when she brought up all-nude spas, but it didn’t really go that way.