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	<title>Comments on: Shrines and Icons in Mormon Thought</title>
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	<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/03/15/shrines-and-icons-in-mormon-thought/</link>
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		<title>By: miles</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/03/15/shrines-and-icons-in-mormon-thought/#comment-52731</link>
		<dc:creator>miles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Mar 2009 00:26:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1516#comment-52731</guid>
		<description>I have recently wanted more of a sacred space to contemplate in at church. Even our chapels, which we do have some reverence for, are not like other churches sanctuaries. I do wonder if we fear too much people choosing to forgo the temple if something more was available without all the strings. It might have the opposite affect and draw people to  want  the ultimate in Mormon sacred experiences. 

Although when I was younger I would just find a nice quite outdoor spot  for my individual sacred space and that worked fine. Now I find it harder to get away to a private space for a moment and it would be nice to have a designated place. I can see my husband and I creating a meditation space, probably not enough space for a room, in our own home someday and that might serve this need nicely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have recently wanted more of a sacred space to contemplate in at church. Even our chapels, which we do have some reverence for, are not like other churches sanctuaries. I do wonder if we fear too much people choosing to forgo the temple if something more was available without all the strings. It might have the opposite affect and draw people to  want  the ultimate in Mormon sacred experiences. </p>
<p>Although when I was younger I would just find a nice quite outdoor spot  for my individual sacred space and that worked fine. Now I find it harder to get away to a private space for a moment and it would be nice to have a designated place. I can see my husband and I creating a meditation space, probably not enough space for a room, in our own home someday and that might serve this need nicely.</p>
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		<title>By: Tam</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/03/15/shrines-and-icons-in-mormon-thought/#comment-52730</link>
		<dc:creator>Tam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Mar 2009 16:42:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1516#comment-52730</guid>
		<description>I was chatting with a friend who is a Free Mason and he informed me that there is at least one branch of Free Masonry that uses Christian symbolism in their higher degrees. I just wanted to amend my comment (#14) so I wasn&#039;t spreading misinformation. Apparently there can be Christian symbolism in Free Mason rites and rituals. But you wouldn&#039;t know it from looking at Mormonism, eh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was chatting with a friend who is a Free Mason and he informed me that there is at least one branch of Free Masonry that uses Christian symbolism in their higher degrees. I just wanted to amend my comment (#14) so I wasn&#8217;t spreading misinformation. Apparently there can be Christian symbolism in Free Mason rites and rituals. But you wouldn&#8217;t know it from looking at Mormonism, eh?</p>
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		<title>By: Tam</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/03/15/shrines-and-icons-in-mormon-thought/#comment-52726</link>
		<dc:creator>Tam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 14:29:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1516#comment-52726</guid>
		<description>I have a home altar, but do not have an entire room decorated like the temple. I have not heard of anyone having a &quot;temple room&quot; in their home. Interesting concept. Is it for mediation or does it serve some other purpose, does anyone know?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a home altar, but do not have an entire room decorated like the temple. I have not heard of anyone having a &#8220;temple room&#8221; in their home. Interesting concept. Is it for mediation or does it serve some other purpose, does anyone know?</p>
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		<title>By: Floyd the Wonderdog</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/03/15/shrines-and-icons-in-mormon-thought/#comment-52725</link>
		<dc:creator>Floyd the Wonderdog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 11:03:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1516#comment-52725</guid>
		<description>I have heard of members decorating rooms in their homes like the temple, complete with altar. Has anyone else heard of this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have heard of members decorating rooms in their homes like the temple, complete with altar. Has anyone else heard of this?</p>
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		<title>By: Kiskilili</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/03/15/shrines-and-icons-in-mormon-thought/#comment-52723</link>
		<dc:creator>Kiskilili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Mar 2009 01:16:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1516#comment-52723</guid>
		<description>Good point, Tam. Some of the symbols we do use are lifted straight from Freemasonry where we&#039;ve decided to reject the cross, the obvious central symbol of Christian worship more generally.

I agree, Seraphine. I actual wish we had a lot more ritual in our worship. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point, Tam. Some of the symbols we do use are lifted straight from Freemasonry where we&#8217;ve decided to reject the cross, the obvious central symbol of Christian worship more generally.</p>
<p>I agree, Seraphine. I actual wish we had a lot more ritual in our worship. <img src='http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Tam</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/03/15/shrines-and-icons-in-mormon-thought/#comment-52721</link>
		<dc:creator>Tam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 19:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1516#comment-52721</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;“Does anything more than chance and circumstance account for the distribution of visual representations in Mormon praxis, or is there some overarching theological model for making sense of this apparent hodgepodge?”&lt;/blockquote&gt;

One aspect to the lack of Christian symbols, ritual, shrines, etc. within the church probably rests in the Masonic origins of Mormonism. Some of the main Mormon symbols (e.g., cornerstones, key stones, beehives) and rituals (e.g., washing and anointing, endowment ceremony) originated with Free Masonry, which is not a religion and thus does not have Christian/religious overtones to its buildings and rituals (though there are some spiritual overtones). 

I think the sense of “hodgepodge” comes, at least in part, from the unique merging of Christianity and Masonry that constitutes Mormonism, which makes it unlike any other Christian religion in terms of symbolism and ritual.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>“Does anything more than chance and circumstance account for the distribution of visual representations in Mormon praxis, or is there some overarching theological model for making sense of this apparent hodgepodge?”</p></blockquote>
<p>One aspect to the lack of Christian symbols, ritual, shrines, etc. within the church probably rests in the Masonic origins of Mormonism. Some of the main Mormon symbols (e.g., cornerstones, key stones, beehives) and rituals (e.g., washing and anointing, endowment ceremony) originated with Free Masonry, which is not a religion and thus does not have Christian/religious overtones to its buildings and rituals (though there are some spiritual overtones). </p>
<p>I think the sense of “hodgepodge” comes, at least in part, from the unique merging of Christianity and Masonry that constitutes Mormonism, which makes it unlike any other Christian religion in terms of symbolism and ritual.</p>
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		<title>By: Seraphine</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/03/15/shrines-and-icons-in-mormon-thought/#comment-52720</link>
		<dc:creator>Seraphine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 18:28:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1516#comment-52720</guid>
		<description>Kiskilili, you&#039;re probably right that if we had more ritual outside of the temple, the temple ritual might not be viewed in the same way (it wouldn&#039;t seem as special, etc.). I still think, though, that a little more ritual (or more discussion of the importance of ritual and symbols overall) in church would be good.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kiskilili, you&#8217;re probably right that if we had more ritual outside of the temple, the temple ritual might not be viewed in the same way (it wouldn&#8217;t seem as special, etc.). I still think, though, that a little more ritual (or more discussion of the importance of ritual and symbols overall) in church would be good.</p>
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		<title>By: Kiskilili</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/03/15/shrines-and-icons-in-mormon-thought/#comment-52717</link>
		<dc:creator>Kiskilili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 16:42:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1516#comment-52717</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;re definitely right, Adam, that there&#039;s an anti-Catholic streak at least partly motivating our distrust of images. It&#039;s perhaps useful here to make a distinction between &quot;holiness&quot; and &quot;that which deserves worship.&quot; Even if only God is worshiped in Mormon thought, I think it&#039;s still useful to understand certain objects as &quot;holy&quot; to Mormons: text, clothing, buildings, movies, oil, and food (sacrament) are all possibilities. And maybe the Mormon concept of the holy is less robust than that of traditional Christians (these objects are accoutrements to our worship and not themselves worshiped). But I&#039;m not convinced we&#039;re that different. When pressed, would a Catholic say holiness inheres in a crucifix and is not a function of the Holy Spirit? Would a Catholic say they&#039;re praying to a statue, or praying to Jesus?

Heh, Jessawhy, I have no secret meaning! I just think I would (maybe) find a ritual appealing if it were extraordinarily strange, atmospheric, and difficult to process linearly. If the divine is unimaginable, why not try to push the limits of imagination in constructing our ritual conception of it? Why not really make it an-out-of-the ordinary experience in some way? This seems to be partly what the cherubim get at. 

Oddly, in Mormonism, we like to say our ritual is entirely &quot;symbolic.&quot; But of all Christians, it seems like we should have the least need to find recourse in symbols in exploring the divine! We think God is a man living on a planet on our ontological plan (or something of that nature).

This is the blasphemous part (and I&#039;m sorry if this is offensive--I don&#039;t mean to imply even that this feeling is defensible): (a) I&#039;d like to fashion my own ritual instead of accepting the one God provided (for more reasons than one), and (b) I thought the temple was (besides being offensive and problematic), well, boring. To be honest, I expected something more exciting and imaginative. For years I was taught it would be difficult to process and incomprehensible. I felt on my first visit that I&#039;d comprehended quite a bit more than I wanted to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;re definitely right, Adam, that there&#8217;s an anti-Catholic streak at least partly motivating our distrust of images. It&#8217;s perhaps useful here to make a distinction between &#8220;holiness&#8221; and &#8220;that which deserves worship.&#8221; Even if only God is worshiped in Mormon thought, I think it&#8217;s still useful to understand certain objects as &#8220;holy&#8221; to Mormons: text, clothing, buildings, movies, oil, and food (sacrament) are all possibilities. And maybe the Mormon concept of the holy is less robust than that of traditional Christians (these objects are accoutrements to our worship and not themselves worshiped). But I&#8217;m not convinced we&#8217;re that different. When pressed, would a Catholic say holiness inheres in a crucifix and is not a function of the Holy Spirit? Would a Catholic say they&#8217;re praying to a statue, or praying to Jesus?</p>
<p>Heh, Jessawhy, I have no secret meaning! I just think I would (maybe) find a ritual appealing if it were extraordinarily strange, atmospheric, and difficult to process linearly. If the divine is unimaginable, why not try to push the limits of imagination in constructing our ritual conception of it? Why not really make it an-out-of-the ordinary experience in some way? This seems to be partly what the cherubim get at. </p>
<p>Oddly, in Mormonism, we like to say our ritual is entirely &#8220;symbolic.&#8221; But of all Christians, it seems like we should have the least need to find recourse in symbols in exploring the divine! We think God is a man living on a planet on our ontological plan (or something of that nature).</p>
<p>This is the blasphemous part (and I&#8217;m sorry if this is offensive&#8211;I don&#8217;t mean to imply even that this feeling is defensible): (a) I&#8217;d like to fashion my own ritual instead of accepting the one God provided (for more reasons than one), and (b) I thought the temple was (besides being offensive and problematic), well, boring. To be honest, I expected something more exciting and imaginative. For years I was taught it would be difficult to process and incomprehensible. I felt on my first visit that I&#8217;d comprehended quite a bit more than I wanted to.</p>
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		<title>By: Jessawhy</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/03/15/shrines-and-icons-in-mormon-thought/#comment-52712</link>
		<dc:creator>Jessawhy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 05:25:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1516#comment-52712</guid>
		<description>K,
Can you elaborate any more on what you mean here,
&lt;blockquote&gt;I’m about to say something vaguely blasphemous, so please scroll down if you have a weak stomach. :) Several things shocked me about the temple–the gender problems were only the most excruciating of them. But I didn’t find the ritual shocking at all. In fact, if anything, I wish it were considerably more unusual.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I&#039;m really not very good at reading between the lines. (or send me an email if you prefer)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>K,<br />
Can you elaborate any more on what you mean here,</p>
<blockquote><p>I’m about to say something vaguely blasphemous, so please scroll down if you have a weak stomach. <img src='http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Several things shocked me about the temple–the gender problems were only the most excruciating of them. But I didn’t find the ritual shocking at all. In fact, if anything, I wish it were considerably more unusual.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;m really not very good at reading between the lines. (or send me an email if you prefer)</p>
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		<title>By: Adam S.</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2009/03/15/shrines-and-icons-in-mormon-thought/#comment-52711</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 04:28:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/?p=1516#comment-52711</guid>
		<description>I enjoyed your post, but I&#039;m inclined to think that our approach to shrines, icons, and images is less hodgepodge than you say.  The common thread in all the examples you bring up is to my mind entirely based on an rigid (and slightly anti-catholic) reading of the second commandment.  The lack of images in the chapel (specifically the sacrament meeting space) etc is a deliberate way to make sure we never are accused of worshiping man-made objects.  Even the use of movies in the temple is a just a way to represent actors who themselves are representing religious figures.  They (the actors or the movies) are never actually worshiped.  The largest deviation from this common thread is the temple itself, which is colloquially endowed with sacred powers.  However, if pressed, any user of the language would confess that it is not the temple itself, but the spirit of the Lord that is there.

I suppose we do court a middle ground with other religious imagery in the sense that we use it to invoke religious feeling.  However, the objects themselves are traditionally believed to contain no independent spiritual power.  

That said, I like the direction of your analysis and the ideas brought out in the comments.  I hope you take the time to flesh out the subject in a later post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I enjoyed your post, but I&#8217;m inclined to think that our approach to shrines, icons, and images is less hodgepodge than you say.  The common thread in all the examples you bring up is to my mind entirely based on an rigid (and slightly anti-catholic) reading of the second commandment.  The lack of images in the chapel (specifically the sacrament meeting space) etc is a deliberate way to make sure we never are accused of worshiping man-made objects.  Even the use of movies in the temple is a just a way to represent actors who themselves are representing religious figures.  They (the actors or the movies) are never actually worshiped.  The largest deviation from this common thread is the temple itself, which is colloquially endowed with sacred powers.  However, if pressed, any user of the language would confess that it is not the temple itself, but the spirit of the Lord that is there.</p>
<p>I suppose we do court a middle ground with other religious imagery in the sense that we use it to invoke religious feeling.  However, the objects themselves are traditionally believed to contain no independent spiritual power.  </p>
<p>That said, I like the direction of your analysis and the ideas brought out in the comments.  I hope you take the time to flesh out the subject in a later post.</p>
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