Comments on: Secret Vows and Time http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/ Sun, 20 May 2012 23:04:59 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Jo http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-52020 Jo Wed, 21 Jan 2009 05:26:40 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-52020 My lovely newly converted husband and I took the temple prep classes, which were not difficult in content and were fairly obscure in nature, sort of like a long testimony meeting where couples cried and said how much they loved each other and that we should too. My stake president, refused my request to renew my temple recommend with the recommendation that I wait until my husband wants to join me and then we can go together. This is not a requirement for the individual endowment but it is allowed as nothing happens when they vary from best practices. Think of it as similar to Jim Crow laws in the South, once black Americans were emancipated. These violations were tolerated by the majority. Here is my tribute for the day. 1/20/09: To: President Obama From: Martin Luther King Re: “I Have a Dream - Let Freedom Ring”: Answer: Freedom has Rung. Let us hope for a day when we too can say "By God Almighty, let freedom ring." From the speech given at the Masonic Temple the night before MLK was assassinated. My lovely newly converted husband and I took the temple prep classes, which were not difficult in content and were fairly obscure in nature, sort of like a long testimony meeting where couples cried and said how much they loved each other and that we should too. My stake president, refused my request to renew my temple recommend with the recommendation that I wait until my husband wants to join me and then we can go together. This is not a requirement for the individual endowment but it is allowed as nothing happens when they vary from best practices. Think of it as similar to Jim Crow laws in the South, once black Americans were emancipated. These violations were tolerated by the majority.
Here is my tribute for the day. 1/20/09:
To: President Obama
From: Martin Luther King
Re: “I Have a Dream – Let Freedom Ring”:
Answer: Freedom has Rung.

Let us hope for a day when we too can say “By God Almighty, let freedom ring.” From the speech given at the Masonic Temple the night before MLK was assassinated.

]]> By: Mary Magdalene http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51264 Mary Magdalene Thu, 08 Jan 2009 01:08:58 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51264 thanks kiski - right back atcha. thanks kiski – right back atcha.

]]> By: Kiskilili http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51248 Kiskilili Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:24:24 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51248 Starfoxy, ack! It does seem to be a problem when the shroud of secrecy prevents people from answering relatively straightforward questions that would let others know what to expect (or not). I have an image in my head of a wan flashlight of information about the temple being shined into an otherwise dark room. As a result, the anxiety-inducing shadows looming on the wall are enormous. I also think there's something of a "wing-on-fire" phenomenon going on. In the John Cleese film <em><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJSey8HRUhU" rel="nofollow">How to Irritate People</a></em> there's a comedic skit in which the pilot and co-pilot on a plane, to entertain themselves, start making announcements to the passengers that are absolutely true, such as "the wings are not on fire." For obvious reasons, that sort of statement only arouses people's suspicions (what sort of context would require that kind of reassurance?), and (after that and a string of nonsensical commands) everyone bails out of the plane. Temple Prep at its worst involves telling people "the wings are not on fire" and "you will find the life jackets under your seats." Starfoxy, ack! It does seem to be a problem when the shroud of secrecy prevents people from answering relatively straightforward questions that would let others know what to expect (or not). I have an image in my head of a wan flashlight of information about the temple being shined into an otherwise dark room. As a result, the anxiety-inducing shadows looming on the wall are enormous.

I also think there’s something of a “wing-on-fire” phenomenon going on. In the John Cleese film How to Irritate People there’s a comedic skit in which the pilot and co-pilot on a plane, to entertain themselves, start making announcements to the passengers that are absolutely true, such as “the wings are not on fire.” For obvious reasons, that sort of statement only arouses people’s suspicions (what sort of context would require that kind of reassurance?), and (after that and a string of nonsensical commands) everyone bails out of the plane. Temple Prep at its worst involves telling people “the wings are not on fire” and “you will find the life jackets under your seats.”

]]> By: Starfoxy http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51244 Starfoxy Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:00:30 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51244 <blockquote>Saying “there’s nothing to be anxious about” likely only indicates to prospective temple-goers that there is, in fact, something to be anxious about.</blockquote> I think I've mentioned this before, but in the run-up to my own endowment I remember asking my mom, "Will I be naked, you know, in-front of other people*?" expecting her to answer with an easy "No, don't be silly." Instead she answered with a nervous "It's very sacred." So I asked again, and again she responded with a more insistent "It's very sacred!" We went back and forth like this several times with my mom getting more panicky and insistent each time. At this point I wrote my mom off as a basketcase and decided to ask my then fiance who answered me in a more reasonable way. *oddly enough I would have been okay with certain sorts of ritual public nudity as occurs in some foreign bath houses, but I would not classify what happens in the temple as public nudity (in case anyone was wondering).

Saying “there’s nothing to be anxious about” likely only indicates to prospective temple-goers that there is, in fact, something to be anxious about.

I think I’ve mentioned this before, but in the run-up to my own endowment I remember asking my mom, “Will I be naked, you know, in-front of other people*?” expecting her to answer with an easy “No, don’t be silly.” Instead she answered with a nervous “It’s very sacred.”

So I asked again, and again she responded with a more insistent “It’s very sacred!” We went back and forth like this several times with my mom getting more panicky and insistent each time. At this point I wrote my mom off as a basketcase and decided to ask my then fiance who answered me in a more reasonable way.

*oddly enough I would have been okay with certain sorts of ritual public nudity as occurs in some foreign bath houses, but I would not classify what happens in the temple as public nudity (in case anyone was wondering).

]]> By: Kiskilili http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51242 Kiskilili Wed, 07 Jan 2009 22:32:22 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51242 Great practical question, Bro. Jones. I don't know how swift or intense the retribution would be, but I personally think it would be helpful to ditch the manual. I took Temple Prep four and a half times in an effort to really prepare myself spiritually, and I also read the booklet and President Packer's book on the subject, none of which really did anything for me. I think the Church needs to be open about the fact that women are being ritually subordinated, for starters. And a more involved discussion of ritual would probably be helpful. Telling people "it will be extremely strange, but don't be frightened" is probably not sufficient. Saying "there's nothing to be anxious about" likely only indicates to prospective temple-goers that there is, in fact, something to be anxious about. Great practical question, Bro. Jones. I don’t know how swift or intense the retribution would be, but I personally think it would be helpful to ditch the manual. I took Temple Prep four and a half times in an effort to really prepare myself spiritually, and I also read the booklet and President Packer’s book on the subject, none of which really did anything for me. I think the Church needs to be open about the fact that women are being ritually subordinated, for starters. And a more involved discussion of ritual would probably be helpful. Telling people “it will be extremely strange, but don’t be frightened” is probably not sufficient. Saying “there’s nothing to be anxious about” likely only indicates to prospective temple-goers that there is, in fact, something to be anxious about.

]]> By: Bro. Jones http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51233 Bro. Jones Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:09:02 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51233 Excellent discussion, thank you everyone for your contributions. Slight derail: suppose I wanted to raise some of these issues (or even teach outside the manual) in a Temple Prep class. How fast and harsh would the consequences be? (By way of information, I'm already endowed and married, and I expect to be called as a TP teacher at some point.) Excellent discussion, thank you everyone for your contributions.

Slight derail: suppose I wanted to raise some of these issues (or even teach outside the manual) in a Temple Prep class. How fast and harsh would the consequences be? (By way of information, I’m already endowed and married, and I expect to be called as a TP teacher at some point.)

]]> By: Jo http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51165 Jo Tue, 06 Jan 2009 03:48:02 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51165 Lady, I'm impressed that you could take a cognitive reflective approach on this blogging process and that you discussed all that you have endured. The Church is the religion that I was brought up in and the religion of my family. The management of the church needs some work as the tendency to not question the process and procedure and rules of the religion takes away from its progression as we evolve our understanding of God and our own religion. I understand the loss of the idealism that you may have held for the Church. The good news is prayer. My prayer was similar. It was, "Help me understand this. Help me know what to do next." As a psychologist and counselor, I have not been in many situations that I could not process a group through to an agreement. My lack of insight was in the resistance that those who benefit from the current structure of the church, and, yes, some of them are "creepy old men" who expect deference and sometimes more from women. I didn't want to see the failures of these men who are not well monitored. They do not have an oversight committe to address concerns. A member is supposed to go right back to the "creepy old men" who violated the process in the first place. We want a better answer and we are not always allowed to ask for that answer through the established church. My experience is that they will not only not answer, but take a punitive approach if one asks good questions. The "creepy old man" Bishop that I had to deal with had an agenda. He is a funeral director and when a student was accidentally killed, the family did not have a church, so they wanted a service at the school. I oversaw the contract that rents the facility for $1 and helped at the after school event. I walked into the auditorium to greet him and noticed that they had brought not only a picture of the student, but also the coffin. I asked someone that would be working there to ensure that the coffin not be opened. I stated it was not "Best practices for the coffin to be there, but since it was already on the stage, it would be allowed." Holding funeral ceremonies at schools is a carefully planned situation as schools do not want younger students going home to tell their parents the following message, "I saw a dead body at school today." Harvard University has a course, FACES, that helps teach us how to read expressions and that course in now available for home delivery. I can tell you that I noted a change in his expression toward me since that event. The requirements he set up to renew my temple recommend was excessive and inappropriate. When I questioned his process, and asked for someone else to interview me, I had an even more punitive response and the Stake President impeded the process further. It was his ego problem and the additional attack was simply to try to discredit someone that he didn't like, personally, when that person disagreed with him on process and his procedure. My prayer regarding help to understand this situation was answered with, "Ask for the change needed in the Church." and a small miracle, finding a diamond that had been lost while walking my dogs in a mica beach area. It helps to keep in mind that God tries and man fails. When the process is not kept pure and not monitored closely (think of the purity of the sacrement), then there is a tendency to embellish it to satisfy personal egos. It is as if some people are so competitive with the holier than thou attitude, they are excluding people, rather than including people in religous procedures. I'm not interested in attending the temple until the Church addresses the embellishments allowed and the unrighteous dominion allowed against members. They do not wish to market themselves honestly, because it would scare away women and invite analysis. Women live longer than men, influence their children and are often willing to spend more time assisting community organizations, and when they have it, donate money. The Church needs to provide members some individual rights against abuse and an oversight process. The secrecy just allows them to get away with bad behavior. The Church knows how to market itself, but that is not always what one finds, depending on the stake's leaders. Just because the LDS were given the fullness of the gospel at one time, it does not mean that we have established a perfect order. Man's influence on how we follow God's example of Jesus Christ does corrupt the message. God's own truth will come, someday. You contribute when you open your heart, risk an unwanted reply (e.g. bitter fruit) and try to resolve what is from God and what is from Man in the message. You are the reasoned soul who can discriminate what is Godly and what is not, through prayer and through the spiritual gifts given to you. There is a saying that "To pray is to dream in league with God." Can we shape our church to be in league with God? The humble example of Jesus Christ shows us the impact of one life, which was not always in agreement with the Pharisies or the ruling Jews and Romans of the day. Even if you are no closer to going back to the church, your spiritual influence will provide for the good in whatever organization you grace. I love education and the sweetness of children who, without guile or influence, tell their truth. Let us be as little children and tell our truth. Thank you for your contributions toward a better understanding of spirituality for all of us. Lady, I’m impressed that you could take a cognitive reflective approach on this blogging process and that you discussed all that you have endured.
The Church is the religion that I was brought up in and the religion of my family. The management of the church needs some work as the tendency to not question the process and procedure and rules of the religion takes away from its progression as we evolve our understanding of God and our own religion. I understand the loss of the idealism that you may have held for the Church.
The good news is prayer. My prayer was similar. It was, “Help me understand this. Help me know what to do next.”
As a psychologist and counselor, I have not been in many situations that I could not process a group through to an agreement.
My lack of insight was in the resistance that those who benefit from the current structure of the church, and, yes, some of them are “creepy old men” who expect deference and sometimes more from women.
I didn’t want to see the failures of these men who are not well monitored. They do not have an oversight committe to address concerns. A member is supposed to go right back to the “creepy old men” who violated the process in the first place. We want a better answer and we are not always allowed to ask for that answer through the established church. My experience is that they will not only not answer, but take a punitive approach if one asks good questions.
The “creepy old man” Bishop that I had to deal with had an agenda. He is a funeral director and when a student was accidentally killed, the family did not have a church, so they wanted a service at the school.
I oversaw the contract that rents the facility for $1 and helped at the after school event. I walked into the auditorium to greet him and noticed that they had brought not only a picture of the student, but also the coffin. I asked someone that would be working there to ensure that the coffin not be opened. I stated it was not “Best practices for the coffin to be there, but since it was already on the stage, it would be allowed.”
Holding funeral ceremonies at schools is a carefully planned situation as schools do not want younger students going home to tell their parents the following message, “I saw a dead body at school today.”
Harvard University has a course, FACES, that helps teach us how to read expressions and that course in now available for home delivery. I can tell you that I noted a change in his expression toward me since that event. The requirements he set up to renew my temple recommend was excessive and inappropriate.
When I questioned his process, and asked for someone else to interview me, I had an even more punitive response and the Stake President impeded the process further. It was his ego problem and the additional attack was simply to try to discredit someone that he didn’t like, personally, when that person disagreed with him on process and his procedure.
My prayer regarding help to understand this situation was answered with, “Ask for the change needed in the Church.” and a small miracle, finding a diamond that had been lost while walking my dogs in a mica beach area.
It helps to keep in mind that God tries and man fails. When the process is not kept pure and not monitored closely (think of the purity of the sacrement), then there is a tendency to embellish it to satisfy personal egos. It is as if some people are so competitive with the holier than thou attitude, they are excluding people, rather than including people in religous procedures.
I’m not interested in attending the temple until the Church addresses the embellishments allowed and the unrighteous dominion allowed against members.
They do not wish to market themselves honestly, because it would scare away women and invite analysis.
Women live longer than men, influence their children and are often willing to spend more time assisting community organizations, and when they have it, donate money.
The Church needs to provide members some individual rights against abuse and an oversight process. The secrecy just allows them to get away with bad behavior.
The Church knows how to market itself, but that is not always what one finds, depending on the stake’s leaders. Just because the LDS were given the fullness of the gospel at one time, it does not mean that we have established a perfect order. Man’s influence on how we follow God’s example of Jesus Christ does corrupt the message. God’s own truth will come, someday.
You contribute when you open your heart, risk an unwanted reply (e.g. bitter fruit) and try to resolve what is from God and what is from Man in the message. You are the reasoned soul who can discriminate what is Godly and what is not, through prayer and through the spiritual gifts given to you.
There is a saying that “To pray is to dream in league with God.” Can we shape our church to be in league with God? The humble example of Jesus Christ shows us the impact of one life, which was not always in agreement with the Pharisies or the ruling Jews and Romans of the day. Even if you are no closer to going back to the church, your spiritual influence will provide for the good in whatever organization you grace.
I love education and the sweetness of children who, without guile or influence, tell their truth. Let us be as little children and tell our truth. Thank you for your contributions toward a better understanding of spirituality for all of us.

]]> By: Lady http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51148 Lady Mon, 05 Jan 2009 20:17:32 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51148 I suppose I'm most in agreement with the suggestion that people could have the option to observe before committing. After all, any visitor or member can observe Sacrament Meeting, attend a baptism, or witness a priesthood blessing, but s/he can also have full disclosure of the ordinances, covenants and physical/symbolic processes before making a decision to be an active participant in any of those rituals. I grant that these things may seem foreign to a first-timer, but when it is part of a routine (and publicly-accessible) worship pattern, it's hardly shocking or disconcerting (indeed for those who've grown up in the church, it's downright mundane). I guess I don't get why the temple ceremony is so vastly different from every other ordinance in the church; I realize it is heavily Masonic, but I have a hard time aligning the Masonic customs and rituals to the restored gospel. Much of it leaves me feeling tremendously uneasy. (Kiskilili, your descriptive, "sinister" perfectly sums up my impression of the Freemason ritualism in the temple; in fact, it's not far in my mind from some kind of Mickey-Mouse-Club/DaVinci-Code/Heaven's-Gate secret-combination basement-voodoo <em>cult </em>activity -- and that's never been what the Mormon church was about, in my eyes. Raise your hand if you've ever had to defend the Mormon church against accusations of cultism.) There also seems to be so many different interpretations of the symbolism, so many varied excuses for WHY it must be so, so many storied disclaimers of "well you'd understand it if only you ____" that the whole point of it seems as elusive and open for interpretation to the faithful Temple-goer as it is to the freaked-out outsider. If we're all meant to be there and receive basically the same promises and blessings and enlightenment, I should think someone would try a little bit harder to see that we're all on the same page, at least. (How about introducing this Mason stuff to the general LDS population, for starters? Stop ignoring it/pretending it isn't true?) If the temple is what we aspire to, if it is the fullest and greatest and most complete representation of truth and oneness with God that we can know in this life, then 1-why does it keep changing, 2-why is it so weird/mysterious, 3-why can't we talk (and <em>really</em> learn) about it, and 4-why is it so closed off from the rest of the world? If I need to join this ultra-exclusive Boys' Club, "level-up" and do the hokey-pokey in order to get into Heaven, then maybe that's not the Heaven I want to be in. <em>("What if the hokey-pokey IS what it's all about?")</em> /OT I confess that I was never <em>that </em>into the church, despite all appearances of being a cultural Mormon; I went to church because my parents made me, I grew up in Utah and it was "the thing to do," etc. I despised scripture study, seminary, forced socialization, going to meetings, and being beholden to some random (usually creepy) male. I never had a high-profile calling or stood up in testimony meeting. Maybe I never really "got it" in all the 30+ years of my on-again/off-again activity. But I always treasured the <em>basics </em>of the gospel. The plain and simple things. For no other reason than they made sense to me. <em>This </em>doesn't make sense to me. I guess I'm done trying to understand. For me, this isn't what spirituality is about, and I'm fine with that now. I prayed for clarity and patience (including genuine sobs of "WHY?! WHY?! WHY?!"), and I am feeling much more peaceful about this. I've spent a lot of time learning about others' experiences and I've tried to remain open-minded and forgiving. The only understanding(s) I've come to are not what I expected (or even wanted). But I don't want to be bitter. Although I'm no closer to going back to church, I'm less angry and distraught than I initially was, so--to those of you who offered--THANK YOU for teaching me and comforting me. You're good people. :) I suppose I’m most in agreement with the suggestion that people could have the option to observe before committing. After all, any visitor or member can observe Sacrament Meeting, attend a baptism, or witness a priesthood blessing, but s/he can also have full disclosure of the ordinances, covenants and physical/symbolic processes before making a decision to be an active participant in any of those rituals. I grant that these things may seem foreign to a first-timer, but when it is part of a routine (and publicly-accessible) worship pattern, it’s hardly shocking or disconcerting (indeed for those who’ve grown up in the church, it’s downright mundane). I guess I don’t get why the temple ceremony is so vastly different from every other ordinance in the church; I realize it is heavily Masonic, but I have a hard time aligning the Masonic customs and rituals to the restored gospel. Much of it leaves me feeling tremendously uneasy. (Kiskilili, your descriptive, “sinister” perfectly sums up my impression of the Freemason ritualism in the temple; in fact, it’s not far in my mind from some kind of Mickey-Mouse-Club/DaVinci-Code/Heaven’s-Gate secret-combination basement-voodoo cult activity — and that’s never been what the Mormon church was about, in my eyes. Raise your hand if you’ve ever had to defend the Mormon church against accusations of cultism.) There also seems to be so many different interpretations of the symbolism, so many varied excuses for WHY it must be so, so many storied disclaimers of “well you’d understand it if only you ____” that the whole point of it seems as elusive and open for interpretation to the faithful Temple-goer as it is to the freaked-out outsider. If we’re all meant to be there and receive basically the same promises and blessings and enlightenment, I should think someone would try a little bit harder to see that we’re all on the same page, at least. (How about introducing this Mason stuff to the general LDS population, for starters? Stop ignoring it/pretending it isn’t true?) If the temple is what we aspire to, if it is the fullest and greatest and most complete representation of truth and oneness with God that we can know in this life, then 1-why does it keep changing, 2-why is it so weird/mysterious, 3-why can’t we talk (and really learn) about it, and 4-why is it so closed off from the rest of the world? If I need to join this ultra-exclusive Boys’ Club, “level-up” and do the hokey-pokey in order to get into Heaven, then maybe that’s not the Heaven I want to be in. (“What if the hokey-pokey IS what it’s all about?”) /OT

I confess that I was never that into the church, despite all appearances of being a cultural Mormon; I went to church because my parents made me, I grew up in Utah and it was “the thing to do,” etc. I despised scripture study, seminary, forced socialization, going to meetings, and being beholden to some random (usually creepy) male. I never had a high-profile calling or stood up in testimony meeting. Maybe I never really “got it” in all the 30+ years of my on-again/off-again activity. But I always treasured the basics of the gospel. The plain and simple things. For no other reason than they made sense to me. This doesn’t make sense to me. I guess I’m done trying to understand. For me, this isn’t what spirituality is about, and I’m fine with that now.

I prayed for clarity and patience (including genuine sobs of “WHY?! WHY?! WHY?!”), and I am feeling much more peaceful about this. I’ve spent a lot of time learning about others’ experiences and I’ve tried to remain open-minded and forgiving. The only understanding(s) I’ve come to are not what I expected (or even wanted). But I don’t want to be bitter. Although I’m no closer to going back to church, I’m less angry and distraught than I initially was, so–to those of you who offered–THANK YOU for teaching me and comforting me. You’re good people. :)

]]> By: Mary Magdalene http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51104 Mary Magdalene Mon, 05 Jan 2009 03:36:30 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51104 The wives, daughters, or other female relatives of Masons can decide to join ... the Order of the Eastern Star. Not sure if you can join on your own w/o a male affiliation in the Masons. Where the masons have the compass and square, the OES has a five-pointed star with each point a different color and some writing in the middle of the star. Once you know what to look for, you'll find plenty of those markings on things from headstones to bumper stickers. My in-laws are Masons/OES. The wives, daughters, or other female relatives of Masons can decide to join … the Order of the Eastern Star. Not sure if you can join on your own w/o a male affiliation in the Masons.

Where the masons have the compass and square, the OES has a five-pointed star with each point a different color and some writing in the middle of the star. Once you know what to look for, you’ll find plenty of those markings on things from headstones to bumper stickers. My in-laws are Masons/OES.

]]> By: Jo http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51099 Jo Sun, 04 Jan 2009 23:45:04 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/26/secret-vows-and-time/#comment-51099 Yes, Kevin, there are similarities, and the women's auxillary to the Mason's is called something else, not the Mason's. What I like about the Masons, is that they are pretty honest about their "Boys' Club" image and organization. Yes, Kevin, there are similarities, and the women’s auxillary to the Mason’s is called something else, not the Mason’s.
What I like about the Masons, is that they are pretty honest about their “Boys’ Club” image and organization.

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