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	<title>Comments on: Are There Any &#8220;Soft R&#8221; Movies? (and Other Movie Rating Musings)</title>
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	<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/04/are-there-any-soft-r-movies-and-other-movie-rating-musings/</link>
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		<title>By: Stephen Erastus Knudsen III</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/04/are-there-any-soft-r-movies-and-other-movie-rating-musings/#comment-50683</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Erastus Knudsen III</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Dec 2008 07:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/04/are-there-any-soft-r-movies-and-other-movie-rating-musings/#comment-50683</guid>
		<description>You are right brother Ziff -- thank you for catching my spelling error -- it happens from time to time due to the cumbersomeness of translating higher thoughts to, you know, regular people speech and what not.  But I meant  &quot;anal&quot; -- my mistake.

Lynnette, I would pray for his soul, and even submit his name to the temple, but I&#039;m afraid my year supply of little pencils has run dry.  After this past election I didn&#039;t think we would still be here this long.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You are right brother Ziff &#8212; thank you for catching my spelling error &#8212; it happens from time to time due to the cumbersomeness of translating higher thoughts to, you know, regular people speech and what not.  But I meant  &#8220;anal&#8221; &#8212; my mistake.</p>
<p>Lynnette, I would pray for his soul, and even submit his name to the temple, but I&#8217;m afraid my year supply of little pencils has run dry.  After this past election I didn&#8217;t think we would still be here this long.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynnette</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/04/are-there-any-soft-r-movies-and-other-movie-rating-musings/#comment-50588</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynnette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:38:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Brother Knudsen, I&#039;m afraid you couldn&#039;t be more right--Brother Ziff is in fact obsessed with all things worldly.  In fact, if you look back through his posts, you&#039;ll discover that this isn&#039;t the first time he&#039;s casually used such worldly terms as &quot;regression,&quot; and devoted his time to analyzing sinful media.  In fact, he&#039;s gone so far as to apply his statistics to the Great and Spacious Building itself--the bloggernacle!  All we can do at this point, I&#039;m afraid, is to pray for his soul.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brother Knudsen, I&#8217;m afraid you couldn&#8217;t be more right&#8211;Brother Ziff is in fact obsessed with all things worldly.  In fact, if you look back through his posts, you&#8217;ll discover that this isn&#8217;t the first time he&#8217;s casually used such worldly terms as &#8220;regression,&#8221; and devoted his time to analyzing sinful media.  In fact, he&#8217;s gone so far as to apply his statistics to the Great and Spacious Building itself&#8211;the bloggernacle!  All we can do at this point, I&#8217;m afraid, is to pray for his soul.</p>
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		<title>By: Ziff</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/04/are-there-any-soft-r-movies-and-other-movie-rating-musings/#comment-50577</link>
		<dc:creator>Ziff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2008 06:01:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Brother Knudsen III, it&#039;s so good to see you around these parts again!

I&#039;m rather surprised that you would consider these immoral things &quot;banal.&quot; In fact, I think they&#039;re rather &lt;em&gt;exciting&lt;/em&gt; immoral things. In fact, I suggest that using the KiM ratings, we can find out how exciting a movie is by multiplying its three individual scores. So a movie scoring 10-10-10 would score a 1000, the maximum possible, on the excitement scale. Isn&#039;t that a little interesting?

In any case, I hope you stick around to find more things to be appalled at, even if I don&#039;t get around to figuring out premortal ranks for everyone. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brother Knudsen III, it&#8217;s so good to see you around these parts again!</p>
<p>I&#8217;m rather surprised that you would consider these immoral things &#8220;banal.&#8221; In fact, I think they&#8217;re rather <em>exciting</em> immoral things. In fact, I suggest that using the KiM ratings, we can find out how exciting a movie is by multiplying its three individual scores. So a movie scoring 10-10-10 would score a 1000, the maximum possible, on the excitement scale. Isn&#8217;t that a little interesting?</p>
<p>In any case, I hope you stick around to find more things to be appalled at, even if I don&#8217;t get around to figuring out premortal ranks for everyone. <img src='http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Stephen Erastus Knudsen III</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/04/are-there-any-soft-r-movies-and-other-movie-rating-musings/#comment-50576</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen Erastus Knudsen III</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Dec 2008 05:45:22 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>How disturbing that after months of spiritual pondering like Enos alone in the wilderness I  return to &quot;the world&quot; only to find Brother Ziff spending far too much time discussing banal immoral things.  Think of the time and energy that you could have put into something productive, like identifying which of us in the church were what rank of general in the war in heaven, or determining the route Moroni took between Cerro Vigia and Cumorah.  Sometimes I really wonder what this world is coming to.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How disturbing that after months of spiritual pondering like Enos alone in the wilderness I  return to &#8220;the world&#8221; only to find Brother Ziff spending far too much time discussing banal immoral things.  Think of the time and energy that you could have put into something productive, like identifying which of us in the church were what rank of general in the war in heaven, or determining the route Moroni took between Cerro Vigia and Cumorah.  Sometimes I really wonder what this world is coming to.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Hunter</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/04/are-there-any-soft-r-movies-and-other-movie-rating-musings/#comment-50568</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Hunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 23:53:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/04/are-there-any-soft-r-movies-and-other-movie-rating-musings/#comment-50568</guid>
		<description>Ziff #25,

Its difficult for me to know the answer to that question. Since I have not been in TV for a great length of time, I&#039;m a post super and I&#039;ve delivered only about 90 episodes of network and cable shows.  I don&#039;t know what it was like 10 or more years ago.  

What I will say is that the networks respond to what they see and hear in the cuts we deliver to them. It&#039;s not like decisions regarding how raunchy or daring content will be are directly made at the network level for all shows before they go into production. The networks just want to please their audiences.  

So it&#039;s complicated, some shows challenge FCC and internal standards in significant ways and others don&#039;t in both cases there are many conversations and a lot of back and forth.  In all cases network S&amp;P folks are always thinking about who might be offended, who might get mad, what the implications of a certain joke or bit of content are, etc.  

Some cable channels do like to push the limits but if anything is going to have a shelf life in syndication then clean versions of the show are created.  This is true even of show that have reputations for hard language and violence.  Sometimes the studio will create a syndication master as part of posting the series.  Sometimes they will do a re-pack after the face.  

Regardless, those of us who work in post are dealing with these issues on a daily basis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ziff #25,</p>
<p>Its difficult for me to know the answer to that question. Since I have not been in TV for a great length of time, I&#8217;m a post super and I&#8217;ve delivered only about 90 episodes of network and cable shows.  I don&#8217;t know what it was like 10 or more years ago.  </p>
<p>What I will say is that the networks respond to what they see and hear in the cuts we deliver to them. It&#8217;s not like decisions regarding how raunchy or daring content will be are directly made at the network level for all shows before they go into production. The networks just want to please their audiences.  </p>
<p>So it&#8217;s complicated, some shows challenge FCC and internal standards in significant ways and others don&#8217;t in both cases there are many conversations and a lot of back and forth.  In all cases network S&amp;P folks are always thinking about who might be offended, who might get mad, what the implications of a certain joke or bit of content are, etc.  </p>
<p>Some cable channels do like to push the limits but if anything is going to have a shelf life in syndication then clean versions of the show are created.  This is true even of show that have reputations for hard language and violence.  Sometimes the studio will create a syndication master as part of posting the series.  Sometimes they will do a re-pack after the face.  </p>
<p>Regardless, those of us who work in post are dealing with these issues on a daily basis.</p>
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		<title>By: Ziff</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/04/are-there-any-soft-r-movies-and-other-movie-rating-musings/#comment-50565</link>
		<dc:creator>Ziff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 15:25:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/04/are-there-any-soft-r-movies-and-other-movie-rating-musings/#comment-50565</guid>
		<description>RT, I guess I was thinking of the Baron&#039;s original point that it&#039;s the highest score--the worst category--that drives the rating more than the total. But of course as you point out, there are lots of exceptions that work in predictable ways.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>RT, I guess I was thinking of the Baron&#8217;s original point that it&#8217;s the highest score&#8211;the worst category&#8211;that drives the rating more than the total. But of course as you point out, there are lots of exceptions that work in predictable ways.</p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/04/are-there-any-soft-r-movies-and-other-movie-rating-musings/#comment-50563</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 14:27:13 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If you  look at movies from before the advent of the PG-13 rating, it&#039;s seems to me like the PG-13 was meant to be a place for harder PG&#039;s rather than softer R&#039;s.  Three PG movies from that era that come immediately to mind as having no business being PG are &lt;em&gt;The Graduate&lt;/em&gt;, &lt;em&gt;The Outlaw Josie Wales&lt;/em&gt;, and &lt;em&gt;Kramer vs. Kramer&lt;/em&gt;, all of which are very adult thematically and feature at least PG-13 levels of nudity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you  look at movies from before the advent of the PG-13 rating, it&#8217;s seems to me like the PG-13 was meant to be a place for harder PG&#8217;s rather than softer R&#8217;s.  Three PG movies from that era that come immediately to mind as having no business being PG are <em>The Graduate</em>, <em>The Outlaw Josie Wales</em>, and <em>Kramer vs. Kramer</em>, all of which are very adult thematically and feature at least PG-13 levels of nudity.</p>
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		<title>By: RoastedTomatoes</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/04/are-there-any-soft-r-movies-and-other-movie-rating-musings/#comment-50561</link>
		<dc:creator>RoastedTomatoes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 13:48:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/04/are-there-any-soft-r-movies-and-other-movie-rating-musings/#comment-50561</guid>
		<description>Ziff #24, thinking in averages here isn&#039;t quite the right move, though.  The argument is about the amazing degree of overlap among ratings, not about the mean separation.  So while mean tendencies tell us that there is some information in the ratings, specific exemplars tell us that there&#039;s clearly something other than content going into the ratings, possibly including aesthetics, genre, or studio politics.

For instance, from your list, Babe, Pig in the City, has the same maximum as Besieged and Beyond Rangoon, and a higher maximum than Beyond Silence.  Chicken Little and 102 Dalmatians have the same maximum as Beyond Silence.  These are certainly anomalies, but they&#039;re interesting because they suggest that a film can possibly earn a lower rating than it arguably deserves simply by (a) packaging itself as a kid&#039;s film and (b) being distributed by Disney....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ziff #24, thinking in averages here isn&#8217;t quite the right move, though.  The argument is about the amazing degree of overlap among ratings, not about the mean separation.  So while mean tendencies tell us that there is some information in the ratings, specific exemplars tell us that there&#8217;s clearly something other than content going into the ratings, possibly including aesthetics, genre, or studio politics.</p>
<p>For instance, from your list, Babe, Pig in the City, has the same maximum as Besieged and Beyond Rangoon, and a higher maximum than Beyond Silence.  Chicken Little and 102 Dalmatians have the same maximum as Beyond Silence.  These are certainly anomalies, but they&#8217;re interesting because they suggest that a film can possibly earn a lower rating than it arguably deserves simply by (a) packaging itself as a kid&#8217;s film and (b) being distributed by Disney&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Ziff</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/04/are-there-any-soft-r-movies-and-other-movie-rating-musings/#comment-50557</link>
		<dc:creator>Ziff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 04:21:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/04/are-there-any-soft-r-movies-and-other-movie-rating-musings/#comment-50557</guid>
		<description>Ray, my understanding was that, at least at the time, the PG-13 rating was cooked up because of concern over what kinds of stuff was being put in movies getting PG ratings. I thought &lt;em&gt;Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom&lt;/em&gt;, which got a PG rating, was a crucial case showing the need for finer ratings distinctions between PG and R.

I don&#039;t doubt that you&#039;re right that the ultimate effect of the creation of PG-13 has been the wider availability of some content that would have been considered R rated before. But at least at the time, I think that PG-13 was seen as making a new place for the &quot;harder&quot; PGs rather than the &quot;softer&quot; Rs.

But I&#039;m certainly not an expert in the history of movie ratings; I could have this wrong. What would be really interesting is if the KiM raters would go back and rate movies from before the (1984-ish?) introduction of the PG-13 rating so we could compare PGs and Rs from before with PGs, PG-13s, and Rs since.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ray, my understanding was that, at least at the time, the PG-13 rating was cooked up because of concern over what kinds of stuff was being put in movies getting PG ratings. I thought <em>Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom</em>, which got a PG rating, was a crucial case showing the need for finer ratings distinctions between PG and R.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t doubt that you&#8217;re right that the ultimate effect of the creation of PG-13 has been the wider availability of some content that would have been considered R rated before. But at least at the time, I think that PG-13 was seen as making a new place for the &#8220;harder&#8221; PGs rather than the &#8220;softer&#8221; Rs.</p>
<p>But I&#8217;m certainly not an expert in the history of movie ratings; I could have this wrong. What would be really interesting is if the KiM raters would go back and rate movies from before the (1984-ish?) introduction of the PG-13 rating so we could compare PGs and Rs from before with PGs, PG-13s, and Rs since.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2008/12/04/are-there-any-soft-r-movies-and-other-movie-rating-musings/#comment-50556</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 07 Dec 2008 02:37:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I also could have added TV-14 (the PG-13-equivalent rating between TV-PG and TV-M) as the chance to market television shows to teenagers that previously would have been limited to adults.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I also could have added TV-14 (the PG-13-equivalent rating between TV-PG and TV-M) as the chance to market television shows to teenagers that previously would have been limited to adults.</p>
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