Comments on: Are Children Products?

By: Relief Society Lesson 42: Family: The Sweetest Union for Time and for Eternity |

Fri, 27 Aug 2010 03:23:46 +0000

[...] that could be a great discussion here is a topic that was discussed so articulately on Zelophehad’s Daughters called: Children as Products It discusses the sometimes overwhelming feelings a mother can have in the church trying to raise [...]

By: m&m

m&m — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 04:00:59 +0000

One more thing, cwc, another concern I have is that I believe people come to the internet to learn more about the Church; the ‘nacle conversations that express frustration or concern are not giving a complete (or, imo, fair) view of the Church or an accurate representations of the viewpoints of most of its members. I understand the need to discuss things and sort them out; still, I will often jump in to provide a different perspective and a little balance to the conversation.

By: Mark D.

Mark D. — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 03:04:32 +0000

i’m sorry, but i hardly ever remember fathers being mentioned when i was a member

I suspect if you were able to spend an ample amount of time observing the proceedings of various Melchizedek priesthood quorums, you would discover something quite different.

By: m&m

m&m — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:45:50 +0000

cwc,
FWIW, if the discussion was about you and in my view was being unfair or misrepresenting something you said, which didn’t take into consideration your intent, your general nature, the big picture and the overall goodness of your parenting — in short, in my view, not giving you the benefit of the doubt and making you out to be a bad person when really you weren’t, my personality is such that I would come to your defense as well.

I know sometimes I jump in too quickly, and I’m sorry for that. It’s sort of like someone coming in and unfairly attacking my best friend; sometimes I get a little defensive.

By: m&m

m&m — Sun, 18 Oct 2009 23:58:00 +0000

cwc,

Actually, I do care that your eyes not roll back in your head, and I do appreciate you asking an honest question. It’s a fair one, but may be better off line. email me at hotmail, mulling_and_musing — I’d actually like it if we could have a conversation about this so that perhaps we don’t have to have the kinds of run-ins we have had in the past. Thanks for giving me a chance to see into your head a little toward why I get on your nerves so much.

By: crazywomancreek

crazywomancreek — Sun, 18 Oct 2009 17:29:21 +0000

53 I am in the bizarre position of agreeing with m&m on her last point. I hope my teenage son sees me with a more empathetic heart than he does now. Although I will say that even now, the more open I am with him about my mistakes and my motivations for those mistakes, the more understanding he is.
On another note, I am genuinely, unsnarkily curious about the “not flawless” comment you made. My main point of contention with you, m&m, is that you seem to have made a pact that wherever the good name of the Gospel is being besmirched you will fly in, quote scripture and prove why it is never, ever, ever (ever.) the case that the Church has committed, contributed to or …something else that starts with a “c”…any flawed action, word or deed. Ever. This may be the wrong forum and you may not care if my eyes start rolling back in my head when I see your name, because I’m pretty sure I know what’s coming, but if I could just hear something that you acknowledged WAS flawed I think it would be harder for me to dismiss what you write.

By: m&m

m&m — Sun, 18 Oct 2009 06:48:51 +0000

One last thought — to those who feel their parents see them as products…might it be possible that they, too, need you to see them as individuals? Maybe they are doing their best. Even God Himself mourns over the choices of His children; try not to be so hard on your parents for not knowing how to handle their grief. We all need some space to figure things out. Parents are no exception.

I’m not trying to justify any existence of a products (objects) mentality, but I’m not always so sure that we as children see our parents in true light, either, just as we may feel they don’t always see us as we hope to be seen. Sometimes we can objectify the choices our parents made just as much as they can do that to us.

By: m&m

m&m — Sun, 18 Oct 2009 06:46:17 +0000

I guess I look at this and see a few things.

1. I agree with Doc about the concept of power and influence, and that sometimes we misunderstand what that means. I think it’s important doctrine to realize that God’s power is found and can be channeled in parenthood. D&C 121 teaches us what that should be about.

2. I don’t think this misunderstanding is unique to motherhood. There are plenty of quotes that talk about how if we fail to fulfill our calling, we will be held responsible for those we might have been able to save. The linear thinking can come into missionary work, too, as has been mentioned. BUT…..

3. I think there are also plenty of quotes and teachings that address people’s agency and, again, the fact that power and influence is not about control or not outcome focused alone, but is about love and leading and respect and prayer and trust in God and allowing space to make mistakes. And yet, that means, also, that parents sometimes need to be cut a little slack. We are all learning, all individuals in need of mercy and patience and respect!,

Anyway, on that point, how many talks have included the “if your children have strayed…” kind of thoughts? What about respecting others’ agency in other contexts? I think we hear plenty of this.

4. As such, I think it’s up to us to process how all of this fits together, and that makes revelation and familiarity with the big picture really important. If we limit our callings in the family or in the church to an assemblyline mentality, we have missed a significant part of the whole of the doctrine and the teachings about our roles, about agency, about the Atonement, about what power and influence really are. Our roles in any of these contexts aren’t about control, or gratifying our pride. I think a key to all of this is really understanding the Atonement.

I understand why it’s thought that we see children as products, but I think that reflects a faulty view of what we are really taught in the whole. It’s also tricky to balance our part vs. God’s part vs. how agency plays into all of that. And we are here to learn these things by experience. NO talk could really help us figure out that balance. We have to live it to learn what it really is. And for each situation, that balance might look a little different.

I think these tensions are simply part of mortality, and I think we need to be careful about laying blame simply on the church or the leaders for somehow creating these problems. I’m not saying every sentence they ever utter is flawless, but that’s part of the program, too…and yet, the overall wholeness in the message really is all there, imo.

By: crazywomancreek

crazywomancreek — Sun, 18 Oct 2009 05:59:17 +0000

i’m getting kiskilili’s name tattooed over my heart – just for that last comment!

By: Kiskilili

Kiskilili — Sun, 18 Oct 2009 03:00:57 +0000

Does “love” justify any behavior on the part of a parent? Does it justify any behavior on the part of God? Are parents always able to distinguish adequately between their own needs and those of their children?

In my proud opinion: hell no. “Love” can easily be invoked as an excuse not to validate someone’s different perspective or choices.

I think the idea you have that (a) all parents love their children and that (b) all parents want what makes their children happy (not what makes them happy themselves) might be narrowminded. I just hope that someday even you too can feel and understand what it means to be smothered or crushed by “love.”