Comments on: Write What You Know, Know What You Write: A Review of Bradford Tice’s “Missionaries” http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/ Thu, 29 Jul 2010 07:37:50 -0600 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Zelophehad’s Daughters | Mormon Gays in Mormon Plays: How Mormon Playwrights Portray Gay and Lesbian Mormons, Part I http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-59496 Zelophehad’s Daughters | Mormon Gays in Mormon Plays: How Mormon Playwrights Portray Gay and Lesbian Mormons, Part I Mon, 12 Jul 2010 14:34:58 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-59496 [...] Ruelle Electrique: “Doctor Who” & Fairy Tales: Traveling Back To One’s Childhood to Re-Learn What A Story Is [...] [...] Ruelle Electrique: “Doctor Who” & Fairy Tales: Traveling Back To One’s Childhood to Re-Learn What A Story Is [...]

]]> By: “Doctor Who” & Fairy Tales: Traveling Back To One’s Childhood to Re-Learn What A Story Is « Ruelle Electrique http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-59177 “Doctor Who” & Fairy Tales: Traveling Back To One’s Childhood to Re-Learn What A Story Is « Ruelle Electrique Sun, 27 Jun 2010 15:20:56 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-59177 [...] Short Stories last year), had a story in Best American Short Stories 2008 that was subsequently lambasted for its misinformed take on its subject matter.  But Tice’s blurb in the 2008 anthology was [...] [...] Short Stories last year), had a story in Best American Short Stories 2008 that was subsequently lambasted for its misinformed take on its subject matter.  But Tice’s blurb in the 2008 anthology was [...]

]]> By: Stephen M (Ethesis) http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-56542 Stephen M (Ethesis) Sun, 22 Nov 2009 05:07:50 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-56542 Austin, the issue is that the story claims to present itself with LDS characters, but is as true to what it is doing as someone doing a skit in Blackface. <b>would be more true to life, but what does that do to the actual story?</b> ... what does authenticity have to do with it? Or, perhaps, what does the complete lack of authenticity have to do with those whose culture is stripmined for the story feeling the author completely abused the context. Austin, the issue is that the story claims to present itself with LDS characters, but is as true to what it is doing as someone doing a skit in Blackface.

would be more true to life, but what does that do to the actual story? … what does authenticity have to do with it?

Or, perhaps, what does the complete lack of authenticity have to do with those whose culture is stripmined for the story feeling the author completely abused the context.

]]> By: Austin http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-56517 Austin Wed, 18 Nov 2009 23:51:34 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-56517 Wow! you caught all of those mistakes. This is a very good bashing of the story, it's almost like you weren't even trying to read into the metaphors or anything... Impressive. Because (for example) the fruit of the loom underwear couldn't have possibly been a representation of case taking fruit from the forbidden tree, going from the orthodox cloth to the materialistic comfort-underwear that people usually buy. Or the ever-so-obvious representation of Satan that Case was. "Tice doesn’t give hypocrisy nearly enough credit." Or is it that Tice might have related the temptation that Case entice people with to the temptation that was the very definition of Satan... It would be Case's job to define people differently than a normal person with typical morals, and to think only of how he could sway them to think his way. All these missions trips you've been on, I'm assuming you've been offered marijuana, made someone consider faith because of your good-looks, AND been in a situation where the only way to convert someone was to take advantage of the senile thoughts of an old woman who has lost a son and been in denial about it... No, because you don't prey on the weak, easily manipulated, and worldly people that are represented in this story. The missions trip i went on, to Managua, Nicaragua, had the fairly straight-forward task of building another room onto a small house to double the size. I wasn't required to be a salesman of the christian faith, I simply showed that there are people in the world who give a crap about those with less wealth than themselves. I do not feel quick to judge a boy who is partnered with someone who does whatever they can to change someone. That would be a very difficult situation to tell someone they should stop because you would be immediately ridiculed for stopping someone find faith, even if you were doing it for the right reasons. I agree that the editors of the story could have caught the flaws in naming of things, but that does not take away from the overall quality of the story. The first reaction to this comment itself will undoubtedly be "this is a hypocritical review of my review," that may be. But I like to look into the meaning of the story rather than to see if the author dotted their i's or crossed their t's. -A fan of Missionaries as well as B. Tice Austin Wow! you caught all of those mistakes. This is a very good bashing of the story, it’s almost like you weren’t even trying to read into the metaphors or anything… Impressive.
Because (for example) the fruit of the loom underwear couldn’t have possibly been a representation of case taking fruit from the forbidden tree, going from the orthodox cloth to the materialistic comfort-underwear that people usually buy.
Or the ever-so-obvious representation of Satan that Case was. “Tice doesn’t give hypocrisy nearly enough credit.” Or is it that Tice might have related the temptation that Case entice people with to the temptation that was the very definition of Satan… It would be Case’s job to define people differently than a normal person with typical morals, and to think only of how he could sway them to think his way.
All these missions trips you’ve been on, I’m assuming you’ve been offered marijuana, made someone consider faith because of your good-looks, AND been in a situation where the only way to convert someone was to take advantage of the senile thoughts of an old woman who has lost a son and been in denial about it… No, because you don’t prey on the weak, easily manipulated, and worldly people that are represented in this story.
The missions trip i went on, to Managua, Nicaragua, had the fairly straight-forward task of building another room onto a small house to double the size. I wasn’t required to be a salesman of the christian faith, I simply showed that there are people in the world who give a crap about those with less wealth than themselves. I do not feel quick to judge a boy who is partnered with someone who does whatever they can to change someone. That would be a very difficult situation to tell someone they should stop because you would be immediately ridiculed for stopping someone find faith, even if you were doing it for the right reasons.
I agree that the editors of the story could have caught the flaws in naming of things, but that does not take away from the overall quality of the story.
The first reaction to this comment itself will undoubtedly be “this is a hypocritical review of my review,” that may be. But I like to look into the meaning of the story rather than to see if the author dotted their i’s or crossed their t’s.

-A fan of Missionaries as well as B. Tice
Austin

]]> By: New Mormon Books » Blog Archive » Review: Bradford Tice’s Short Story Missionaries http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-53943 New Mormon Books » Blog Archive » Review: Bradford Tice’s Short Story Missionaries Mon, 13 Jul 2009 20:33:32 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-53943 [...] Write What You Know, Know What You Write: A Review of Bradford Tice’s “Missionaries” By Eve Zelophehad’s Daughters, 19 July 2007 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradf... [...] [...] Write What You Know, Know What You Write: A Review of Bradford Tice’s “Missionaries” By Eve Zelophehad’s Daughters, 19 July 2007 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradf... [...]

]]> By: Rich http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-50198 Rich Tue, 04 Nov 2008 21:17:26 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-50198 Tice's story is more about how we are confined by our innate nature than it is about mormonism - or religion in general. Joseph, at the end, begins to wish he was Case, but because of who he is - even, hinted at, the way he was raised - he really never will be. That's a perfect idea for a story this length, and to do it as Tice did, to make the reader “feel” that truth rather than just understand it in an intellectual way, is at least eighty percent the goal of any SHORT STORY, not simple accuracy. And, if you read the author's notes at the end of the book, Tice says he was inspired by seeing mormon callers. He says the story was not intended to be about mormonism. I just finished the story today. It is the best from the book so far. I’ve read five or six - and I read Missionaries with no preconceived feelings about - what truly is only - the most obvious subject matter. Tice’s story is more about how we are confined by our innate nature than it is about mormonism – or religion in general. Joseph, at the end, begins to wish he was Case, but because of who he is – even, hinted at, the way he was raised – he really never will be. That’s a perfect idea for a story this length, and to do it as Tice did, to make the reader “feel” that truth rather than just understand it in an intellectual way, is at least eighty percent the goal of any SHORT STORY, not simple accuracy. And, if you read the author’s notes at the end of the book, Tice says he was inspired by seeing mormon callers. He says the story was not intended to be about mormonism.
I just finished the story today. It is the best from the book so far. I’ve read five or six – and I read Missionaries with no preconceived feelings about – what truly is only – the most obvious subject matter.

]]> By: nomo http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-33413 nomo Fri, 17 Aug 2007 18:34:02 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-33413 Sometimes a story is not written by mormons for mormons, so can it still be enjoyed? The author obviously threw in enough to get readers to realize what we're dealing with character-wise, but if every fact is not exactly correct, it's not detracting from the story. If it is, I think you're missing the point. Some of the elements you touched on in your review are exactly the intent of the author. This is a story about the relationship between two individuals. Does the reader not get a sense of isolation from this story? A sense that these two young men have mainly themselves to rely on in this situation? Sure, having to check in with a mission president would be more true to life, but what does that do to the actual story? These interactions do not get at the crux of the situation, so they are ommitted. At the heart of this is the way the two men feel about each other, themselves, and their lives at this time. There is disgust, confusion, respect, love, betrayal, faith, and just overall humanity. I think once you stop seeing the characters as mormons, and realize that they are people with feelings you can appreciate the interactions within the story. So why the framework of mormonism then? I believe the author used it as a device with which to automatically establish the strict environment of this coming-of-age story. The reader can instantly see the conflict in the character behaviors and we get a good amount of unspoken exposition for free. I did not have a problem with the timeframe of the story, as I assumed the Vietnam comment was the delusions of a poor old woman, which made her a very sad character indeed. I didn’t think the story was offensive. It was certainly intense, but it worked for me in the sense that it was reminiscent of the overall intensity of life at that age. Sometimes a story is not written by mormons for mormons, so can it still be enjoyed?

The author obviously threw in enough to get readers to realize what we’re dealing with character-wise, but if every fact is not exactly correct, it’s not detracting from the story. If it is, I think you’re missing the point.

Some of the elements you touched on in your review are exactly the intent of the author. This is a story about the relationship between two individuals.

Does the reader not get a sense of isolation from this story? A sense that these two young men have mainly themselves to rely on in this situation? Sure, having to check in with a mission president would be more true to life, but what does that do to the actual story?

These interactions do not get at the crux of the situation, so they are ommitted. At the heart of this is the way the two men feel about each other, themselves, and their lives at this time. There is disgust, confusion, respect, love, betrayal, faith, and just overall humanity.

I think once you stop seeing the characters as mormons, and realize that they are people with feelings you can appreciate the interactions within the story.

So why the framework of mormonism then? I believe the author used it as a device with which to automatically establish the strict environment of this coming-of-age story. The reader can instantly see the conflict in the character behaviors and we get a good amount of unspoken exposition for free.

I did not have a problem with the timeframe of the story, as I assumed the Vietnam comment was the delusions of a poor old woman, which made her a very sad character indeed. I didn’t think the story was offensive. It was certainly intense, but it worked for me in the sense that it was reminiscent of the overall intensity of life at that age.

]]> By: bob http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-33337 bob Wed, 15 Aug 2007 17:41:09 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-33337 tice has no background in mormonism, nor has he done the research. tice has no background in mormonism, nor has he done the research.

]]> By: Tiffany http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-33042 Tiffany Thu, 09 Aug 2007 20:23:28 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-33042 I hope it is okay to jump into the discussion. I've been a lurker for a few months and have appreciated the excellent discussions and insights. I really appreciated the review on the story and the ensuing discussion. If I may, I would like to respond to the question in comment number 7 about the attitudes toward sex and religiousity in Europe. Attitudes about sexuality vary around Europe from very liberal to very conservative. I have lived in Sweden for 5 years so hopefully, I may add an insight. My comments about sexuality will be limited to what I have observed in Sweden. First, I think the approach to sex in Sweden is matter of fact. People treat it as a normal part of life. Perhaps this is no more evident than in the way sexuality is treated with teenagers. It is very common for teenagers to date one person exclusively and have a sexual relationship with that person. This sexual relationship is usually sanctioned by both parents. So most teenagers go home to have sex with their partner instead of sneaking around. Random partners are discouraged and fidelity is encouraged. Even the body isn't viewed as completely sexual. For example, a topless woman at a beach isn't shouting out a blatant statement of sexuality. She's just a woman, on a beach, sunning herself without her top. That's it. I would agree that Swedish culture is much more secular than religious. But I wouldn't tie in being a "prude" with being religious. The Swedish State church (although it is no longer officially the State church) has tried very hard to disassociate itself from any type of sexual prudery. Most Swedes I know find the idea of abstaining from sex on moral grounds strange. I apologize if this sounds disjointed. Hopefully, this gives a little idea of view of sexuality in Europe--at least in Sweden. I hope it is okay to jump into the discussion. I’ve been a lurker for a few months and have appreciated the excellent discussions and insights. I really appreciated the review on the story and the ensuing discussion. If I may, I would like to respond to the question in comment number 7 about the attitudes toward sex and religiousity in Europe. Attitudes about sexuality vary around Europe from very liberal to very conservative. I have lived in Sweden for 5 years so hopefully, I may add an insight. My comments about sexuality will be limited to what I have observed in Sweden.

First, I think the approach to sex in Sweden is matter of fact. People treat it as a normal part of life. Perhaps this is no more evident than in the way sexuality is treated with teenagers. It is very common for teenagers to date one person exclusively and have a sexual relationship with that person. This sexual relationship is usually sanctioned by both parents. So most teenagers go home to have sex with their partner instead of sneaking around. Random partners are discouraged and fidelity is encouraged.

Even the body isn’t viewed as completely sexual. For example, a topless woman at a beach isn’t shouting out a blatant statement of sexuality. She’s just a woman, on a beach, sunning herself without her top. That’s it.

I would agree that Swedish culture is much more secular than religious. But I wouldn’t tie in being a “prude” with being religious. The Swedish State church (although it is no longer officially the State church) has tried very hard to disassociate itself from any type of sexual prudery. Most Swedes I know find the idea of abstaining from sex on moral grounds strange.

I apologize if this sounds disjointed. Hopefully, this gives a little idea of view of sexuality in Europe–at least in Sweden.

]]> By: Fact Finder http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-32622 Fact Finder Wed, 01 Aug 2007 19:10:07 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/07/19/write-what-you-know-know-what-you-write-a-review-of-bradford-tices-missionaries/#comment-32622 Interesting. Thanks for the review. Interesting. Thanks for the review.

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