Comments on: Why I Worry

By: Dan Ellsworth

Dan Ellsworth — Sun, 24 Jun 2007 12:47:50 +0000

Lynette,

I definitely get it when it comes to the theological concerns. And I know it sounds flippant or simplistic, but I really think GeoffJ’s orginial post on personal revelation gets to the heart of the matter, because you have more right to revelation on your status in the eternities than does Pres. Hinckley. And people are correct in pointing out that personal revelation is not always reliable, but it is one of our aims as members of the Church to learn to understand it to the point where we can rely upon it. I’ll be the first to concede that this is easier said than done.
In any case, though, personal revelation is also the thing that justifies me in correcting my bishop if he is in error, as I mentioned before. Thankfully, that has not happened to me, because my bishops have generally been pretty broad-minded people who understand the scope of their ministry, which is more narrow than we sometimes tend to think.

By: Lynnette

Lynnette — Sat, 23 Jun 2007 22:32:52 +0000

Great post, Seraphine. I think you’ve really hit on why I’m not necessarily reassured by statements that it will all be fine in the eternities. Because I also hear assertions that LDS women are happier and more privileged than any other group of women, to give one example. So if I find that I often feel more respected and happier outside of LDS contexts, what does that mean about the eternities? Is feeling like a full human being a “worldly” pleasure which I’ll be asked to give up?

Dan said (#2):

I would argue, though, is that a lot of us have needs that cannot be met within the context of Church. The Gospel is the most important thing in the world to me, but the Church is only a part of my world. That means that my disappointments in Church are often offset by my enjoyment of other parts of my world.

I very much agree with this. Though I’d also note that while a bunch of us grew up in Utah, none of the regular ZD bloggers still live there. And at the risk of misrepresenting my co-bloggers, I suspect that most of us would be more likely to be criticized for not making the Church enough a part of our lives, rather than the reverse (we seem to have a lot of anti-social, non-activity-attending types). So I’m not sure that our feminist concerns really arise from focusing too much on the Church, or expecting it to fill all of our needs.

One other note. I’m certainly interested in the topic of social justice. But for me, this is also about theology. How do I understand myself as a human being, specifically a female human being, from a theological perspective? That’s a question that matters quite a lot to me, and the mixed messages I hear are unsettling.

By: Jack

Jack — Sat, 23 Jun 2007 19:04:39 +0000

Equality is great — for the upper 3%. The rest of us have yet to figure out how to find joy in the endlessly loathsome and mundane activities of life at the “survival” level.

Ah, but why should I worry? At least there seems to be a healthy dose of equality in our poverty level-lives. I work with uncooperative dirty oily machines all day and my wife works with uncooperative dirty oily children. We should be happy!

By: Seraphine

Seraphine — Sat, 23 Jun 2007 16:47:38 +0000

Dan, I think your strategies for viewing the church are healthy (i.e. seeing the bishop as a servant, adding qualifiers in front of statements, etc.) Still, I’m agree with RT’s comments in #7 that it is our duty as Christians to be involved in social justice, and I think these things shouldn’t be separate from the church. And, I have a hard time not seeing the “power over” element of the bishop’s relationship with the members of the ward–I’m glad the perspective you have works for you, though.

By: Mormon Mentality

Mormon Mentality — Fri, 22 Jun 2007 02:22:49 +0000

What I Worry About...

I want to continue my conversation with Seraphine at Zelophehad’s Daughters (and all feminists in the Church, for that matter) by explaining why I don't spend a whole lot of time worrying about the Church, and neither should they.
Seraphine was...

By: Dan Ellsworth

Dan Ellsworth — Fri, 22 Jun 2007 01:24:12 +0000

Jessawhy,

I have a long post coming to flesh these ideas out more, and I’m going to trackback so as not to threadjack here.
But to address your questions briefly, I am a firm believer in private responses to social injustice as much as possible. I have no problem with people publishing their bad experiences on public blogs, though, because I think that serves a healthy support-group function.
I have to reiterate another point, and I can’t be emphatic enough about this: my bishop is my and my wife’s servant. He has absolutely no “power over” us, whatsoever. He serves us directly through his ministry, and indirectly through Church administration. My wife and I will never lose one second of sleep over whether our bishop has a healthy concept of our relationship, roles, etc. His views on those things don’t concern us, because those questions are between us and the Lord. My wife has absolute autonomy in our marriage and in her personal decisions, and she has education and earnings equal to mine. We live the Gospel as we see fit, and are blessed and happy in doing so. I guess we just don’t give much thought to “power structures,” “patriarchy,” or what other people think.

By: Glenn

Glenn — Thu, 21 Jun 2007 23:17:30 +0000

Dan,
That is a cool perspective. It’s a choice on how you view the church and how you act and interepret how you are acted upon within it. Do you ever come up against things that are mainstream “here is how you need to conform” and you just say, “nope — not ga daat?” Or do your personal choices and personal direction generally lead you to the same conclusions as others who conform perhaps only because they are “supposed” to?

Also, when you see a social injustice — and you acknoeldge that many are there — is your response public or private?

By: Jessawhy

Jessawhy — Thu, 21 Jun 2007 19:50:56 +0000

Dan,
I’m really interested in what you’re saying, and trying to understand it better. You indicate that the church isn’t concerned with social justice in a worldly sense (for lack of a better word).
Do you think the church is interested in social justice at all, or not the kind we discuss in politics or academia?
Your point that the church doesn’t care about social justice, so why try to find it there just doesn’t make sense in my mind. That is, unless there is an assumption that the criteria that would create social justice are not the same criteria that would create God’s kingdom on earth, or Zion, perhaps.
I’m also wondering if you’re saying, “Church isn’t the place for trying to create social justice. If you want social justice join the peace corps or something.”
Interesting ideas, I appreciate your presenting a different perspective.

By: Dan Ellsworth

Dan Ellsworth — Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:32:11 +0000

Seraphine and Glenn,
Maybe the reason I am able to take my position regarding Church leaders is, I don’t see the power relationships you see. My leaders are my servants, and sometimes they bring to their service an outdated or simply incorrect worldview. I understand that these things are tricky, because we also believe, as a basic proposition, that our leaders are inspired; it is also a basic proposition of our faith that inspiration sometimes sounds crazy or outdated.
My personal experience is that the Church doesn’t work for me unless I put qualifiers like “generally speaking,” or “ideally,” in front of even some of its most basic propositions, and I have developed a mental mechanism that inserts those qualifiers into most of what I hear at Church. It’s a useful tool that keeps me from having to swim in exceptionalism all the time.
I understand all of your concerns for social justice, but I have come to the personal conclusion that the Church doesn’t care about my concept of social justice, so I don’t generally seek it within the context of the Church.
That is not to say that I won’t try to solve problems and correct people when necessary at Church, but frankly, until the Church becomes consumed with questions of national security, consumption, poverty and the environment, I will not see it as being an institution centered in the ideals of social justice that are most dear to me personally.

By: Seraphine

Seraphine — Thu, 21 Jun 2007 01:46:20 +0000

Glenn, heh. You’re right–exhaling is good.