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	<title>Comments on: Fun With Models: Thinking More About Divorce</title>
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		<title>By: Anonymous 2</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-65982</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous 2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2011 04:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-65982</guid>
		<description>By the way, the &quot;errant ways&quot; is my wording, not his.  He&#039;s been more gentle and more hurt than outwardly judgemental.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, the &#8220;errant ways&#8221; is my wording, not his.  He&#8217;s been more gentle and more hurt than outwardly judgemental.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous 2</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-65981</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous 2</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Jun 2011 04:04:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-65981</guid>
		<description>Anonymous,

I am so sorry for you and what you&#039;re going through.  I am going through the same thing from the other side of the deal (like Lessie,) and I know it&#039;s very painful all around.  I was an RM when I married my husband, and I&#039;d been a very strong member all my life.  

Now I consider myself a nondenominational Christian, but I still attend church and the average member probably doesn&#039;t know about my changed views.  I felt like I had to share my new feelings with my husband because he was my best friend and soul mate, and I needed his love and support no matter what.  

Of course, as I predicted, it broke his heart.  I think he&#039;s still suffering from it about 3 years later.  In fact, it may have been what first sparked the sex addiction that I discovered a couple of weeks ago.  

It turns out that he&#039;s been going to massage parlors (yes, that kind) for three years and he&#039;s gone to brothels in other countries.  

He says that the fact that I&#039;m trying not to divorce him or give up on him helps him to feel my love and helps him to realize that God loves me even in my errant ways.  The irony, in my opinion, is that in his mind I think my &quot;crime&quot; was of about equal severity as his.

I don&#039;t know if we&#039;ll make it or not, but I think the fact that we&#039;re both willing to try certainly means something.  I think it just means we&#039;re in love.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anonymous,</p>
<p>I am so sorry for you and what you&#8217;re going through.  I am going through the same thing from the other side of the deal (like Lessie,) and I know it&#8217;s very painful all around.  I was an RM when I married my husband, and I&#8217;d been a very strong member all my life.  </p>
<p>Now I consider myself a nondenominational Christian, but I still attend church and the average member probably doesn&#8217;t know about my changed views.  I felt like I had to share my new feelings with my husband because he was my best friend and soul mate, and I needed his love and support no matter what.  </p>
<p>Of course, as I predicted, it broke his heart.  I think he&#8217;s still suffering from it about 3 years later.  In fact, it may have been what first sparked the sex addiction that I discovered a couple of weeks ago.  </p>
<p>It turns out that he&#8217;s been going to massage parlors (yes, that kind) for three years and he&#8217;s gone to brothels in other countries.  </p>
<p>He says that the fact that I&#8217;m trying not to divorce him or give up on him helps him to feel my love and helps him to realize that God loves me even in my errant ways.  The irony, in my opinion, is that in his mind I think my &#8220;crime&#8221; was of about equal severity as his.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if we&#8217;ll make it or not, but I think the fact that we&#8217;re both willing to try certainly means something.  I think it just means we&#8217;re in love.</p>
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		<title>By: Lessie</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-24984</link>
		<dc:creator>Lessie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 01:04:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-24984</guid>
		<description>I was kind of worried by Elder Oak&#039;s talk as well.  While I was glad to hear it presented as an egalitarian relationship, I know that the issues my husband and I had in our early relationship were directly related to a supposed hierarchical relationship viz. the temple covenants.  From there, our relationship spiraled into different forms of emotional and physical abuse on both sides.  For us, the thing that saved our marriage was professional help--learning how to communicate our views in non-inflamatory ways and how to identify what usually started our fights.  Elder Oak&#039;s reluctance to mention professional help scared me for other couples who may not feel comfortable going that route and so are unable to learn how to heal and move past severe emotional injuries.  Of course, in our marriage, we were both willing to try--if one spouse isn&#039;t, then really, the other spouse can really only do so much.  

Anonymous, speaking from the perspective of the spouse who is having belief issues, more than likely, your husband is probably aware of the betrayal you might be feeling and knows that he is causing you pain.  At least in my case, it isn&#039;t anything against my husband or the promises I made to him, and it causes me pain to think that I might be hurting him, I just can&#039;t seem to accept some of the things I used to.  I&#039;m not trying to be condescending either, I&#039;m not even trying to defend your spouse or judge you, I&#039;m just letting you know that usually testimony issues don&#039;t change the fact that a spouse loves you and wants to be with you.  I hope this is helpful, it was meant with the best of intentions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was kind of worried by Elder Oak&#8217;s talk as well.  While I was glad to hear it presented as an egalitarian relationship, I know that the issues my husband and I had in our early relationship were directly related to a supposed hierarchical relationship viz. the temple covenants.  From there, our relationship spiraled into different forms of emotional and physical abuse on both sides.  For us, the thing that saved our marriage was professional help&#8211;learning how to communicate our views in non-inflamatory ways and how to identify what usually started our fights.  Elder Oak&#8217;s reluctance to mention professional help scared me for other couples who may not feel comfortable going that route and so are unable to learn how to heal and move past severe emotional injuries.  Of course, in our marriage, we were both willing to try&#8211;if one spouse isn&#8217;t, then really, the other spouse can really only do so much.  </p>
<p>Anonymous, speaking from the perspective of the spouse who is having belief issues, more than likely, your husband is probably aware of the betrayal you might be feeling and knows that he is causing you pain.  At least in my case, it isn&#8217;t anything against my husband or the promises I made to him, and it causes me pain to think that I might be hurting him, I just can&#8217;t seem to accept some of the things I used to.  I&#8217;m not trying to be condescending either, I&#8217;m not even trying to defend your spouse or judge you, I&#8217;m just letting you know that usually testimony issues don&#8217;t change the fact that a spouse loves you and wants to be with you.  I hope this is helpful, it was meant with the best of intentions.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-24714</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 16:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-24714</guid>
		<description>Arphaxad, I hope you are right.  But I fear that the hostility to same-sex marriage may be so strong and so  deeply felt (by which I mean felt viscerally, at a level not susceptible to reasoned critique) that it really wouldn&#039;t occur to anyone to worry about whether that opposition looks hypocritical to external observers.  It would be nice if the emphasis on divorce were part of some carefully thought out strategy to balance the opposition to gay marriage, but I&#039;m not convinced.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arphaxad, I hope you are right.  But I fear that the hostility to same-sex marriage may be so strong and so  deeply felt (by which I mean felt viscerally, at a level not susceptible to reasoned critique) that it really wouldn&#8217;t occur to anyone to worry about whether that opposition looks hypocritical to external observers.  It would be nice if the emphasis on divorce were part of some carefully thought out strategy to balance the opposition to gay marriage, but I&#8217;m not convinced.</p>
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		<title>By: Arphaxad</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-24712</link>
		<dc:creator>Arphaxad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 14:26:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-24712</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t mean to sound cynical.  I think it&#039;s a pretty smart move.  It does seem hypocritical to make &quot;supporting marriage&quot; for all practical purposes the functional equivalent of opposing gay marriage while ignoring soaring divorce rates.  The perception only increases when we consider that Jesus spoke out against divorce and said nothing (at least, nothing we have recorded) specifically about homosexuality.  

If you want to find scriptural support for the idea that divorce is too prevalent, you don&#039;t need to look far.  If you want to find scriptural support for the idea that gay marriage is wrong, you won&#039;t find anything from the savior; you&#039;ll have to go to Paul and some oblique references to &quot;the sin of Sodom&quot; (which Ezekial asserts was not sodomy, but a lack of concern for the poor).  Against this scriptural background, it would make sense that church leaders would want to re-evaluate the focus on opposition to gay marriage and ramp up efforts to preserve marriage per se.

I don&#039;t mean to say or imply that Elder Oaks is being insincere.  He probably is also concerned with divorce, but I think it is likely that the impetus for the concern with divorce had more to do with a concern about gay marriage than with a concern about divorce itself.

BTW, Anonymous, I am sorry to hear that.  I can&#039;t imagine what you must feel.  There isn&#039;t really anything that I could say that wouldn&#039;t come off as condescending, but my prayers are with you.  My wife&#039;s brother-in-law joined the church to marry my sister-in-law only to leave the church (though not formally) a few years later.  After about two years of being decidedly against the church, he is now returning.  He just took my sister-in-law to the temple again.  It was extremely hard for my wife&#039;s family, but there was hope.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t mean to sound cynical.  I think it&#8217;s a pretty smart move.  It does seem hypocritical to make &#8220;supporting marriage&#8221; for all practical purposes the functional equivalent of opposing gay marriage while ignoring soaring divorce rates.  The perception only increases when we consider that Jesus spoke out against divorce and said nothing (at least, nothing we have recorded) specifically about homosexuality.  </p>
<p>If you want to find scriptural support for the idea that divorce is too prevalent, you don&#8217;t need to look far.  If you want to find scriptural support for the idea that gay marriage is wrong, you won&#8217;t find anything from the savior; you&#8217;ll have to go to Paul and some oblique references to &#8220;the sin of Sodom&#8221; (which Ezekial asserts was not sodomy, but a lack of concern for the poor).  Against this scriptural background, it would make sense that church leaders would want to re-evaluate the focus on opposition to gay marriage and ramp up efforts to preserve marriage per se.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t mean to say or imply that Elder Oaks is being insincere.  He probably is also concerned with divorce, but I think it is likely that the impetus for the concern with divorce had more to do with a concern about gay marriage than with a concern about divorce itself.</p>
<p>BTW, Anonymous, I am sorry to hear that.  I can&#8217;t imagine what you must feel.  There isn&#8217;t really anything that I could say that wouldn&#8217;t come off as condescending, but my prayers are with you.  My wife&#8217;s brother-in-law joined the church to marry my sister-in-law only to leave the church (though not formally) a few years later.  After about two years of being decidedly against the church, he is now returning.  He just took my sister-in-law to the temple again.  It was extremely hard for my wife&#8217;s family, but there was hope.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-24708</link>
		<dc:creator>Anonymous</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:39:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-24708</guid>
		<description>Although I don&#039;t agree 100% with much of what has been said, this thread has helped me put a few things in perspective.  I have just discovered that my convert husband, who I thought believed in the Gospel and the Church, does not.  I have never pictured myself in this kind of situation, having gotten here through trying to follow what I believed was God&#039;s will, and have no idea how to deal with it.  Thank you for posting this now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although I don&#8217;t agree 100% with much of what has been said, this thread has helped me put a few things in perspective.  I have just discovered that my convert husband, who I thought believed in the Gospel and the Church, does not.  I have never pictured myself in this kind of situation, having gotten here through trying to follow what I believed was God&#8217;s will, and have no idea how to deal with it.  Thank you for posting this now.</p>
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		<title>By: Kristine</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-24683</link>
		<dc:creator>Kristine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 05:06:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-24683</guid>
		<description>Hmmm--I definitely didn&#039;t love the talk, but I think it&#039;s too cynical to read it as exclusively, or even primarily, an innoculation against charges of hypocrisy.  I think there&#039;s probably some real sense of desperation about the failure of traditional family forms, particularly within the church.  There are plenty of things to be perturbed about in this talk, but I&#039;d be inclined to be a bit more generous about the motivations behind it.  President Faust&#039;s home teaching message last month was also about avoiding divorce.  I suspect these are just the first in a long series...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmmm&#8211;I definitely didn&#8217;t love the talk, but I think it&#8217;s too cynical to read it as exclusively, or even primarily, an innoculation against charges of hypocrisy.  I think there&#8217;s probably some real sense of desperation about the failure of traditional family forms, particularly within the church.  There are plenty of things to be perturbed about in this talk, but I&#8217;d be inclined to be a bit more generous about the motivations behind it.  President Faust&#8217;s home teaching message last month was also about avoiding divorce.  I suspect these are just the first in a long series&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Jessawhy</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-24675</link>
		<dc:creator>Jessawhy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Apr 2007 02:19:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-24675</guid>
		<description>Arphaxad, I think that is a good reading of Elder Oaks talk.  I&#039;ve had a problem with the anti-gay-marriage issue because it seems that we don&#039;t really support marriage/families in our communities, we just want to prevent homosexuals from having their own.
I can definately see his talk framed as a way to stem appearance of hypocricy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arphaxad, I think that is a good reading of Elder Oaks talk.  I&#8217;ve had a problem with the anti-gay-marriage issue because it seems that we don&#8217;t really support marriage/families in our communities, we just want to prevent homosexuals from having their own.<br />
I can definately see his talk framed as a way to stem appearance of hypocricy.</p>
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		<title>By: Arphaxad</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-24662</link>
		<dc:creator>Arphaxad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 21:07:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-24662</guid>
		<description>Maybe I&#039;m way off, but my reaction to Elder Oaks&#039; talk was that he is primarily concerned with trying to get the idea across that there is more to supporting &quot;traditional marriage&quot; than being anti-gay-marriage.  Either that, or defensively responding to the critique that it is hypocritical to spend so many resources on the opposition of gay marriage while at the same time virtually ignoring high divorce rates.  

I saw the sermon as an attempt to inoculate the church (and Elder Oaks) from charges of hypocrisy.  It seemed to me that it was more motivated by concerns about the perception of the church in relation to homosexuality than concerns about divorce.  This is especially so since Elder Oaks has been a bit more active and vocal  on the subject that most of the brethren.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I&#8217;m way off, but my reaction to Elder Oaks&#8217; talk was that he is primarily concerned with trying to get the idea across that there is more to supporting &#8220;traditional marriage&#8221; than being anti-gay-marriage.  Either that, or defensively responding to the critique that it is hypocritical to spend so many resources on the opposition of gay marriage while at the same time virtually ignoring high divorce rates.  </p>
<p>I saw the sermon as an attempt to inoculate the church (and Elder Oaks) from charges of hypocrisy.  It seemed to me that it was more motivated by concerns about the perception of the church in relation to homosexuality than concerns about divorce.  This is especially so since Elder Oaks has been a bit more active and vocal  on the subject that most of the brethren.</p>
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		<title>By: JKS</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-23876</link>
		<dc:creator>JKS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Apr 2007 03:21:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2007/04/09/thinking-about-divorce/#comment-23876</guid>
		<description>I didn&#039;t mean an actual legal document.  I meant that normally when a couple goes to the temple to marry, they currently don&#039;t scream obsenities at each other, or say very hurtful things to each other.  Perhaps they spend money without the other person knowing....I don&#039;t know.
Anyway, from Day 1 of marriage to divorce, what changed?  How did they get from treating each other well to hating each other, or not being able to work together, or not wanting to share their lives?  It is little choices.  You cross a line.  You cross a line that shouldn&#039;t be crossed.
The time to decide not to cross that line is before it happens.  Decide what you think makes a good marriage, and what the two of you need in a marriage and then stick to it.
The marriage commitment shouldn&#039;t be, &quot;We won&#039;t ever get a divorce.&quot;  It should be &quot;We won&#039;t get a divorce, and if we are unhappy we will fix our marriage until it makes us happy again.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t mean an actual legal document.  I meant that normally when a couple goes to the temple to marry, they currently don&#8217;t scream obsenities at each other, or say very hurtful things to each other.  Perhaps they spend money without the other person knowing&#8230;.I don&#8217;t know.<br />
Anyway, from Day 1 of marriage to divorce, what changed?  How did they get from treating each other well to hating each other, or not being able to work together, or not wanting to share their lives?  It is little choices.  You cross a line.  You cross a line that shouldn&#8217;t be crossed.<br />
The time to decide not to cross that line is before it happens.  Decide what you think makes a good marriage, and what the two of you need in a marriage and then stick to it.<br />
The marriage commitment shouldn&#8217;t be, &#8220;We won&#8217;t ever get a divorce.&#8221;  It should be &#8220;We won&#8217;t get a divorce, and if we are unhappy we will fix our marriage until it makes us happy again.&#8221;</p>
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