Thanks, Starfoxy, for the examples on how there is not such a difference between “unspoken” and “spoken” limits as we may think.

Consider make-up. I don’t wear make-up and it’s pretty easy for me. When I worked my employer didn’t care, my husband never has cared, and I’ve never felt that people think I’m ugly or unkempt. Sometimes I feel ugly, but I know it’s in my head and that I would still feel like that even if I wore make-up everyday. Also since I don’t work anymore the only dress code I have to follow is the one I decide on. I have quite a bit of real freedom in my grooming choices because I have been incredibly lucky to have found work easily, and been wealthy enough to be choosy about my job prospects.

Most women in my situation continue to wear make-up even though no one makes them, or tells them that they must. This contributes to widely held notion that basic grooming for women includes makeup. This widely held notion allowed a casino to fire a bartender for her refusal to wear make-up, and led to a court of law upholding the decision. The unspoken expectation that women should wear make-up very quickly became spoken, and was upheld by the law. Let me also make it clear that make-up is not part of basic hygiene that should be required of food workers (things like clean hand and hair), it can negetively contribute to skin irritation, and besides the indirect costs of wearing make-up (dealing with skin irritation, time spent applying it, etc.) make-up has direct costs and in this woman’s case was an unfunded mandate– which means that the casino and the court were really out of line on this one.

Naismith, while we have a certain amount of control over our media exposure, it’s impossible to avoid completely–advertising is *everywhere* and we are more affected by the messages in advertising than we realize.

My graduate work included many classes on media effects, so I’m not oblivious to the effects of media exposure. But there are also limitations. MOST people who view a television movie about a mass murderer do not mimic the behavior. MOST advertising campaigns fail to capture the public’s attention or get them to purchase the product–anyone heard of an IBM PC lately?

So I think it is not accurate to compare the tangible black-and-white restrictions that prohibited me from taking drafting in high school because I was female from the more subtle and amorphous influence that media exerts.

And just about every media study I had to read drew a correlation between exposure and effects, so by choosing to limit our exposure (even though some is going to slip in, as you note), we can limit the influence of media.

(Easy for me to say, I know since we live in a town with only two television stations, PBS and ABC, and by simply not getting cable, it’s been easy to leave the television off most of the time our children have been raised. It certainly would be different if we lived in Manhattan, but we turned down jobs on the East Coast to move to a smaller city that we thought would be better for raising children.)

If you looked over some my specific examples, I was talking about issues like media imagery (one of the causes of the serious epidemic of eating disorders and body image issues in women) and violence against women. Just because these don’t entail people saying to women “you can’t do this” doesn’t make them unreal problems.

I totally agree with you that violence against women is a real problem. It is a physical act which has real consequences. And one of the horrible things about the sin is that it takes away women’s agency to make their own decisions.

Media imagery strikes me as in a whole ‘nother category and far less “real.” Nobody has to act on media images, any more than they have to act on other people’s expectations or “unspoken limits.” We have a choice in such things. We can control our media exposure, and we can choose our reaction to the media. We can decide to ignore “unspoken limits” and be what we want to be.

Also, on the question of “earthy dominions”–I agree that earthly power is ephemeral, and not really significant from an eternal perspective. However, I don’t think that means we’re not meant to concern ourselves with it at all; in fact, my understanding of what it means to be a Christian is that it includes working for social justice.

Anyway, I think it’s possible to resist societal pressures, but I still think society limits women in many ways that they can’t always resist (or they have a limited amount of resources, and they have to pick and choose their battles).

And Naismith, why do you assume that my feminist complaints are because I “want everything handed to me”? If you looked over some my specific examples, I was talking about issues like media imagery (one of the causes of the serious epidemic of eating disorders and body image issues in women) and violence against women. Just because these don’t entail people saying to women “you can’t do this” doesn’t make them unreal problems.

Your perspectives on feminist issues are very interesting, and we appreciate your passion for the topic. It’s refreshing for all of us to hear from someone with the experiences you’ve had, and the discussion would be less rich without your voice.

I’m sure you’re aware that your tone, however, is quite abrasive and sometimes outright rude. Please be warned that if you do not dial it down, you risk having your comments deleted from the site.

I think I’m going to be skinned alive for this… but the scenarios you are outlining indicate not a theft of agency but a surrendering of agency.

I can only agree. I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who gives into “unspoken limits/restrictions based on race, gender, etc.”

That’s because I was an early-wave feminist who actually had to deal with REAL, SPOKEN limits based on gender. When I was in high school, girls could not wear pants to school. Women were not accepted into West Point or the NASA space program. When I was pregnant the first time, I had to sue to keep my job.

So talk about “unspoken limits” makes today’s women sound like whiny wimps. Poor little darlings who don’t have everything you want handed to you!