Comments on: Thinking About the End of the World http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/ Wed, 08 Feb 2012 05:00:36 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Sam S. http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2681 Sam S. Tue, 10 Oct 2006 18:02:07 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2681 This has been a terrific discussion. Thank you all for talking about the end times while using your heads. So many people are still plagued with the old "turn and burn" or fundamental, revival mentality that they fail to see what's really going on with the Bible's discussion of the end times. In my church, many of the older people are caught up in the dispensational approach where they watch international news with wide eyes waiting to hear something about Israel that they can use to prove that the end is near. This kind of garbage does more to detract people from Christ and the Gospel than it does actually helping people understand the world we live in. I like George Eldon Ladd's eschatology. We are already living in the Kingdom of God, but not yet fully. This already-not-yet understanding of scriptures allows us to pay attention to the world we live in, make the most of it now, but also realize that we can experience the Kingdom of Heaven in part because Christ has died, risen, and sent the Holy Spirit. Until he returns, we will never fully enter Heaven. Until then also, we must be faithful as disciples, helping as many people as we can find a lasting relationship with God, taking care of each other and the world we live in in the meantime. On this subject, Barry Callen has written a nice little book called, "Faithful in the Meantime" which is a helpful book on eschatology. This has been a terrific discussion. Thank you all for talking about the end times while using your heads. So many people are still plagued with the old “turn and burn” or fundamental, revival mentality that they fail to see what’s really going on with the Bible’s discussion of the end times. In my church, many of the older people are caught up in the dispensational approach where they watch international news with wide eyes waiting to hear something about Israel that they can use to prove that the end is near. This kind of garbage does more to detract people from Christ and the Gospel than it does actually helping people understand the world we live in. I like George Eldon Ladd’s eschatology. We are already living in the Kingdom of God, but not yet fully. This already-not-yet understanding of scriptures allows us to pay attention to the world we live in, make the most of it now, but also realize that we can experience the Kingdom of Heaven in part because Christ has died, risen, and sent the Holy Spirit. Until he returns, we will never fully enter Heaven. Until then also, we must be faithful as disciples, helping as many people as we can find a lasting relationship with God, taking care of each other and the world we live in in the meantime. On this subject, Barry Callen has written a nice little book called, “Faithful in the Meantime” which is a helpful book on eschatology.

]]> By: Jared E. http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2620 Jared E. Wed, 04 Oct 2006 04:32:04 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2620 Mark, I am very much aware that it is "the doctrine of the Church that such things, especially in Isaiah, do actually refer to the latter days." But it is pretty clear, at least in the case of Daniel and especially in the case of Revelation, that the respective authors thought <em>their</em> time was the "latter days". Mark,
I am very much aware that it is “the doctrine of the Church that such things, especially in Isaiah, do actually refer to the latter days.” But it is pretty clear, at least in the case of Daniel and especially in the case of Revelation, that the respective authors thought their time was the “latter days”.

]]> By: Eve http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2610 Eve Tue, 03 Oct 2006 19:24:14 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2610 "And perhaps the most terrifying aspect of eschatology is not any future world calamity, but the seriousness of human decision." I particularly like this concluding line, Lynnette. I think that's an excellent, sobering way to consider our own lives. Salvation and damnation are always, in some sense, here and now. “And perhaps the most terrifying aspect of eschatology is not any future world calamity, but the seriousness of human decision.”

I particularly like this concluding line, Lynnette. I think that’s an excellent, sobering way to consider our own lives. Salvation and damnation are always, in some sense, here and now.

]]> By: Mark Butler http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2606 Mark Butler Tue, 03 Oct 2006 14:26:05 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2606 AmyB, Though in the scriptures it is "the end of the world", it is really "the end of this world as we know it". This earth will be a terrestrial world during the Millennium and will be celestialized after that. So proper care of nature may be seen to be proper care of what will become the celestial kingdom, at least for the heirs of celestial glory from this earth. What kind of man or woman cannot be outraged by the carelessness with with which many treat our natural environment? I understand all life to be a creation of God (other than the eternal soul), not a cosmic accident, and we should honor and respect it as such, the same way we honor our own body - a tabernacle or holy temple for the spirit. That is what the earth is for - to provide a sacred place of habitation for both man and beast. It is a temple. AmyB,

Though in the scriptures it is “the end of the world”, it is really “the end of this world as we know it”. This earth will be a terrestrial world during the Millennium and will be celestialized after that. So proper care of nature may be seen to be proper care of what will become the celestial kingdom, at least for the heirs of celestial glory from this earth.

What kind of man or woman cannot be outraged by the carelessness with with which many treat our natural environment? I understand all life to be a creation of God (other than the eternal soul), not a cosmic accident, and we should honor and respect it as such, the same way we honor our own body – a tabernacle or holy temple for the spirit. That is what the earth is for – to provide a sacred place of habitation for both man and beast. It is a temple.

]]> By: Mark IV http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2605 Mark IV Tue, 03 Oct 2006 14:23:58 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2605 Don't the scriptures give us a way to look at the end of the world that is close to what AmyB describes? If we view the end of the world as the destruction of the wicked(wicked things, not wicked people), I think that fills the bill. When we overcome evil in our own lives, we are participating in the process of bringing Zion. That is also part of the end times, and I prefer to think of the "latter days" as a time when we can anticipate wonderful things. Don’t the scriptures give us a way to look at the end of the world that is close to what AmyB describes? If we view the end of the world as the destruction of the wicked(wicked things, not wicked people), I think that fills the bill.

When we overcome evil in our own lives, we are participating in the process of bringing Zion. That is also part of the end times, and I prefer to think of the “latter days” as a time when we can anticipate wonderful things.

]]> By: Mark Butler http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2604 Mark Butler Tue, 03 Oct 2006 14:07:25 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2604 Jared E., How do you know that John and Daniel and Isaiah were not using current events and context to explicate a future situtation in a concise and understandable way? Take this scripture for example: <blockquote> Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the <i>latter days</i>: for yet the vision is for many days. And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb. And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength. For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me. Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me. (Dan 10:14-19) </blockquote> Now of course certain scholars are skeptical, because a large percentage of them do not believe in the gift of prophecy and revelation in any case. But it is certainly the doctrine of the Church that such things, especially in Isaiah, do actually refer to the latter days. Jared E.,

How do you know that John and Daniel and Isaiah were not using current events and context to explicate a future situtation in a concise and understandable way?

Take this scripture for example:

Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

And when he had spoken such words unto me, I set my face toward the ground, and I became dumb. And, behold, one like the similitude of the sons of men touched my lips: then I opened my mouth, and spake, and said unto him that stood before me, O my lord, by the vision my sorrows are turned upon me, and I have retained no strength.

For how can the servant of this my lord talk with this my lord? for as for me, straightway there remained no strength in me, neither is there breath left in me.

Then there came again and touched me one like the appearance of a man, and he strengthened me, And said, O man greatly beloved, fear not: peace be unto thee, be strong, yea, be strong. And when he had spoken unto me, I was strengthened, and said, Let my lord speak; for thou hast strengthened me.
(Dan 10:14-19)

Now of course certain scholars are skeptical, because a large percentage of them do not believe in the gift of prophecy and revelation in any case. But it is certainly the doctrine of the Church that such things, especially in Isaiah, do actually refer to the latter days.

]]> By: Lynnette http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2600 Lynnette Mon, 02 Oct 2006 21:45:04 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2600 AmyB, that's a fabulous point. I completely agree that one of the dangers in focusing on eschatology is that it can lead to a lack of concern with the present--kind of a, why worry about the environment or social justice if God is going to show up and fix it all anyway? I think maintaining an eschatological perspective is important in tempering human utopianism, in countering the kind of Enlightenment notion that we can save ourselves (individually and socially) through the triumph of reason or scientific advancement or whatever else. But that doesn't mean we should simply give up and retreat from the world; I think ideally an eschatological vision motivates us by giving us a glimpse of what could be, what we're working toward. As Gustavo Gutierrez (the founder of liberation theology) puts it, it's our hope for the kingdom of God that gives us the courage to resist present injustice. (And for what it's worth, I'd have a hard time coming up with many recent mainstream theologians who <em>don't</em> encourage environmental and social responsibility. Pannenberg's notion that eternity is "more real" is primarily aimed at addressing questions of ontology, and I don't think is meant at all to devalue the here and now--though I can see how my quite brief summary could raise that concern.) AmyB, that’s a fabulous point. I completely agree that one of the dangers in focusing on eschatology is that it can lead to a lack of concern with the present–kind of a, why worry about the environment or social justice if God is going to show up and fix it all anyway? I think maintaining an eschatological perspective is important in tempering human utopianism, in countering the kind of Enlightenment notion that we can save ourselves (individually and socially) through the triumph of reason or scientific advancement or whatever else. But that doesn’t mean we should simply give up and retreat from the world; I think ideally an eschatological vision motivates us by giving us a glimpse of what could be, what we’re working toward. As Gustavo Gutierrez (the founder of liberation theology) puts it, it’s our hope for the kingdom of God that gives us the courage to resist present injustice.

(And for what it’s worth, I’d have a hard time coming up with many recent mainstream theologians who don’t encourage environmental and social responsibility. Pannenberg’s notion that eternity is “more real” is primarily aimed at addressing questions of ontology, and I don’t think is meant at all to devalue the here and now–though I can see how my quite brief summary could raise that concern.)

]]> By: Lynnette http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2599 Lynnette Mon, 02 Oct 2006 21:29:49 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2599 Thanks, Seraphine. Mark Butler, I agree that eschatology can't really be understood without soteriology. And I like your observation that the wicked perish because they are alone--it reminded me of another point made by Rahner and others: since the gospel is the good news of salvation, a focus on destruction, damnation, and hell is kind of missing the point of it all. God's work is to save. Damnation comes from our choice to resist that, not from God's Plan of Damnation. I find it helpful to keep that in mind in thinking about eschatology so that it doesn't turn into "The Precise Details of How God is Going to Zap You." Jared, thanks for the link; it's interesting to see the changing role of millenialism in the church over time. Thanks, Seraphine.

Mark Butler, I agree that eschatology can’t really be understood without soteriology. And I like your observation that the wicked perish because they are alone–it reminded me of another point made by Rahner and others: since the gospel is the good news of salvation, a focus on destruction, damnation, and hell is kind of missing the point of it all. God’s work is to save. Damnation comes from our choice to resist that, not from God’s Plan of Damnation. I find it helpful to keep that in mind in thinking about eschatology so that it doesn’t turn into “The Precise Details of How God is Going to Zap You.”

Jared, thanks for the link; it’s interesting to see the changing role of millenialism in the church over time.

]]> By: Jared E. http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2598 Jared E. Mon, 02 Oct 2006 21:28:55 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2598 Well said AmyB. Well said AmyB.

]]> By: AmyB http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2597 AmyB Mon, 02 Oct 2006 21:21:22 +0000 http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/10/01/thinking-about-the-end-of-the-world/#comment-2597 <em>This is because what is most real is not our present world, but the eternal kingdom of God.</em> I sometimes have trouble with ideas like this. I feel like too often Christian theology is overly focused on ascendancy and encourages feelings of detachment or separateness from the earth. Being convinced of the literal end of the earth has the effect in some cases of making people less likely to be concerned for and care for Gaia, for this beautiful planet earth we have in the here and now. If it's all coming to an end anyway why should I worry about recycling, or decreasing pollution, or if more and more species are becoming extinct? Or in an even more twisted way, "I shouldn't worry about the environment at all because the destruction of it is bringing the second coming more swiftly, and why would I want to delay the return of Christ?" (yes, I've actually heard this one). Are there eschatological theologians that encourage environmental and social responsibility? The idea that a study of eschatology can bring us into more focus on the present moment appeals to me. A realization that this earthly life has a time limit helps me to be more grateful for each moment that I have. This is because what is most real is not our present world, but the eternal kingdom of God.

I sometimes have trouble with ideas like this. I feel like too often Christian theology is overly focused on ascendancy and encourages feelings of detachment or separateness from the earth. Being convinced of the literal end of the earth has the effect in some cases of making people less likely to be concerned for and care for Gaia, for this beautiful planet earth we have in the here and now. If it’s all coming to an end anyway why should I worry about recycling, or decreasing pollution, or if more and more species are becoming extinct? Or in an even more twisted way, “I shouldn’t worry about the environment at all because the destruction of it is bringing the second coming more swiftly, and why would I want to delay the return of Christ?” (yes, I’ve actually heard this one). Are there eschatological theologians that encourage environmental and social responsibility?

The idea that a study of eschatology can bring us into more focus on the present moment appeals to me. A realization that this earthly life has a time limit helps me to be more grateful for each moment that I have.

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