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	<title>Comments on: The Bible as Cultural Icon</title>
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		<title>By: Kiskilili</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/09/10/the-bible-as-cultural-icon/#comment-2374</link>
		<dc:creator>Kiskilili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Sep 2006 01:19:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Rosalynde writes, &lt;em&gt;But I part ways with you when you suggest that the knotty hermeneutic problems of a text as various the Bible make it a poor candidate for religion-making.&lt;/em&gt;

I didn&#039;t mean to suggest that if the Bible does not perform well in the role so often assigned to it, it has no legitimate place at all in the religious community. My intentions were only to comment on the disconnect between what the Bible seems to say and our attitudes toward what it must say, or what it is assumed to say.  

The other side of the question, which I think is what you&#039;re raising, is how the Bible might then appropriately function in religious worship. I&#039;ve tinkered for a long time with the idea of regarding scripture not as a codification of policy, but rather as a potential conduit to the divine.

What I think you&#039;re saying about &quot;genuine encounters with the text&quot; is that encounters vary perhaps in degree but certainly not in type. But I think there actually are less genuine encounters with the text that it&#039;s useful to think of as qualitatively different--specifically, when the text itself is not involved at all. As with any famous work, this may be the case more often than not, and is as true of biblical scholars as lay worshippers: we encounter someone&#039;s secondhand ideas about the Bible rather than the text itself. (How many thinkers am I familiar with through secondary sources only???) This isn&#039;t necessarily bad, but it sometimes makes it easy to perpetuate this sort of disconnect.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rosalynde writes, <em>But I part ways with you when you suggest that the knotty hermeneutic problems of a text as various the Bible make it a poor candidate for religion-making.</em></p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t mean to suggest that if the Bible does not perform well in the role so often assigned to it, it has no legitimate place at all in the religious community. My intentions were only to comment on the disconnect between what the Bible seems to say and our attitudes toward what it must say, or what it is assumed to say.  </p>
<p>The other side of the question, which I think is what you&#8217;re raising, is how the Bible might then appropriately function in religious worship. I&#8217;ve tinkered for a long time with the idea of regarding scripture not as a codification of policy, but rather as a potential conduit to the divine.</p>
<p>What I think you&#8217;re saying about &#8220;genuine encounters with the text&#8221; is that encounters vary perhaps in degree but certainly not in type. But I think there actually are less genuine encounters with the text that it&#8217;s useful to think of as qualitatively different&#8211;specifically, when the text itself is not involved at all. As with any famous work, this may be the case more often than not, and is as true of biblical scholars as lay worshippers: we encounter someone&#8217;s secondhand ideas about the Bible rather than the text itself. (How many thinkers am I familiar with through secondary sources only???) This isn&#8217;t necessarily bad, but it sometimes makes it easy to perpetuate this sort of disconnect.</p>
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		<title>By: Eve</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/09/10/the-bible-as-cultural-icon/#comment-2362</link>
		<dc:creator>Eve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 18:17:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I can definitely see how I wasn&#039;t very clear--to paraphrase what Kiskilili said in an earlier comment, I sort of skipped the ritual postmodern disclaimer. And I since confess to being pretty burned out on sex in my texts, maybe I should modestly retreat into my postmodern textual layers. ;) Coming soon: &lt;em&gt;For the Strength of Youth&lt;/em&gt; in interpretive practice! I&#039;m sure you all can&#039;t wait.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can definitely see how I wasn&#8217;t very clear&#8211;to paraphrase what Kiskilili said in an earlier comment, I sort of skipped the ritual postmodern disclaimer. And I since confess to being pretty burned out on sex in my texts, maybe I should modestly retreat into my postmodern textual layers. <img src='http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  Coming soon: <em>For the Strength of Youth</em> in interpretive practice! I&#8217;m sure you all can&#8217;t wait.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/09/10/the-bible-as-cultural-icon/#comment-2353</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 01:56:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Ah, Eve, I see about the genuine encounter, I think: I understood you to mean something like an ideologically unmediated relationship between naked reader and pristine text---a mythic scene that serves some cultural interests but poorly describes the actual process of reading (though, now that I think of it, sounds kind of sexy). I&#039;m with you on everything else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, Eve, I see about the genuine encounter, I think: I understood you to mean something like an ideologically unmediated relationship between naked reader and pristine text&#8212;a mythic scene that serves some cultural interests but poorly describes the actual process of reading (though, now that I think of it, sounds kind of sexy). I&#8217;m with you on everything else.</p>
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		<title>By: Eve</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/09/10/the-bible-as-cultural-icon/#comment-2352</link>
		<dc:creator>Eve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 01:04:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Rosalynde, I&#039;m absolutely with you in glorying in the complex, the ambiguous, the downright bizarre, and the flatly contradictory narratives and doctrines encompassed in the Bible, and I think--I really hope--we&#039;d all much prefer the Bible to handbooks and manuals. But I think Kiskilili--if I might venture to speak for her (of course, please come along and unspeak me, Kiskilili, when you get back over here)--is pointing to thorny problems with the ways we selectively prooftext the Bible to make it accord with our own preconceived ideas of doctrine and politics, the way our manuals reduce its complexity and contradictions to simple, clear doctrinal statements. I understand her to be asking, rhetorically, that if the point of our study and worship is to arrive at such doctrinal statements, what, precisely, do we need the Bible for?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rosalynde, I&#8217;m absolutely with you in glorying in the complex, the ambiguous, the downright bizarre, and the flatly contradictory narratives and doctrines encompassed in the Bible, and I think&#8211;I really hope&#8211;we&#8217;d all much prefer the Bible to handbooks and manuals. But I think Kiskilili&#8211;if I might venture to speak for her (of course, please come along and unspeak me, Kiskilili, when you get back over here)&#8211;is pointing to thorny problems with the ways we selectively prooftext the Bible to make it accord with our own preconceived ideas of doctrine and politics, the way our manuals reduce its complexity and contradictions to simple, clear doctrinal statements. I understand her to be asking, rhetorically, that if the point of our study and worship is to arrive at such doctrinal statements, what, precisely, do we need the Bible for?</p>
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		<title>By: Eve</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/09/10/the-bible-as-cultural-icon/#comment-2351</link>
		<dc:creator>Eve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 Sep 2006 00:55:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Rosalynde, I guess I don&#039;t see how a genuine encounter with the text--by which I mean one that strives to be intellectually honest about the possible range of meanings it might encompass--is antithetical to the inevitable existence of interpretive principles. Any hermeneutic, particularly when we approach an ancient, alien text from an ancient, alien culture, is going to have multiple points of origin, many of them in our own time and culture. But I don&#039;t see how that multiplicity necessarily precludes critical judgment;  instead, it makes critical judgment--not to mention cultural exchange--possible. So I don&#039;t think I would accept the dichotomy you suggest (at least, as far as I am here interpreting you according to a hermeneutic you yourself could accept! ;) ) between the acceptance of an interpretive principle and the acceptance of interpretive limits; I see them as interdependent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rosalynde, I guess I don&#8217;t see how a genuine encounter with the text&#8211;by which I mean one that strives to be intellectually honest about the possible range of meanings it might encompass&#8211;is antithetical to the inevitable existence of interpretive principles. Any hermeneutic, particularly when we approach an ancient, alien text from an ancient, alien culture, is going to have multiple points of origin, many of them in our own time and culture. But I don&#8217;t see how that multiplicity necessarily precludes critical judgment;  instead, it makes critical judgment&#8211;not to mention cultural exchange&#8211;possible. So I don&#8217;t think I would accept the dichotomy you suggest (at least, as far as I am here interpreting you according to a hermeneutic you yourself could accept! <img src='http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  ) between the acceptance of an interpretive principle and the acceptance of interpretive limits; I see them as interdependent.</p>
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		<title>By: Rosalynde</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/09/10/the-bible-as-cultural-icon/#comment-2341</link>
		<dc:creator>Rosalynde</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Sep 2006 19:18:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/09/10/the-bible-as-cultural-icon/#comment-2341</guid>
		<description>Nice thoughts, Kiskilili. I&#039;m in full agreement on the futility---&lt;em&gt;from a critical perspective&lt;/em&gt;---of grounding one&#039;s political claims in the Bible, and on the difficulty---again, from a critical perspective---of coming to scripture on its own terms. (Although I&#039;m not sure what you mean, Eve, by a &quot;geniune encounter with the text&quot;: it seems to me that any act of reading must be informed by some prior interpretive principle, even those that make an explicit objective of recovering original meaning, no?) I value a critical approach to the Bible, and I wouldn&#039;t mind seeing more of it in church, because I take great pleasure in the intellectual work of historicizing and comparing and categorizing and recovering.

But I part ways with you when you suggest that the knotty hermeneutic problems of a text as various the Bible make it a poor candidate for religion-making. On the contrary, it seems to me, the Bible provides a glorious superabundance of evocative, malleable, suggestive, confusing, mysterious, ancient, exotic, terrifying, sublime religious raw materials---that is, it conveys the very substances of the sacred, and the sacred, above all and uniquely, is what religion offers to humans. Indeed, scripture itself, in making claims on the reader, invites the cultural overdetermination through which we make our own claims on scripture---and it&#039;s precisely those layers of cultural overdetermination, so obfuscating in the seminar room, that stir the soul in the chapel. Handbooks and position papers can be put out by committees; the patina of holiness cannot.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice thoughts, Kiskilili. I&#8217;m in full agreement on the futility&#8212;<em>from a critical perspective</em>&#8212;of grounding one&#8217;s political claims in the Bible, and on the difficulty&#8212;again, from a critical perspective&#8212;of coming to scripture on its own terms. (Although I&#8217;m not sure what you mean, Eve, by a &#8220;geniune encounter with the text&#8221;: it seems to me that any act of reading must be informed by some prior interpretive principle, even those that make an explicit objective of recovering original meaning, no?) I value a critical approach to the Bible, and I wouldn&#8217;t mind seeing more of it in church, because I take great pleasure in the intellectual work of historicizing and comparing and categorizing and recovering.</p>
<p>But I part ways with you when you suggest that the knotty hermeneutic problems of a text as various the Bible make it a poor candidate for religion-making. On the contrary, it seems to me, the Bible provides a glorious superabundance of evocative, malleable, suggestive, confusing, mysterious, ancient, exotic, terrifying, sublime religious raw materials&#8212;that is, it conveys the very substances of the sacred, and the sacred, above all and uniquely, is what religion offers to humans. Indeed, scripture itself, in making claims on the reader, invites the cultural overdetermination through which we make our own claims on scripture&#8212;and it&#8217;s precisely those layers of cultural overdetermination, so obfuscating in the seminar room, that stir the soul in the chapel. Handbooks and position papers can be put out by committees; the patina of holiness cannot.</p>
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		<title>By: Beijing</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/09/10/the-bible-as-cultural-icon/#comment-2336</link>
		<dc:creator>Beijing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 12 Sep 2006 01:38:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I appreciate that explanation. I agree with you that accepting any old personal interpretation without investigation isn&#039;t good scholarship. My BYU profs gave me the impression that they were in a teeny-tiny minority in insisting that some interpretations were valid and others weren&#039;t; maybe they were exaggerating or maybe scholars have generally moved past that point in the intervening decade.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate that explanation. I agree with you that accepting any old personal interpretation without investigation isn&#8217;t good scholarship. My BYU profs gave me the impression that they were in a teeny-tiny minority in insisting that some interpretations were valid and others weren&#8217;t; maybe they were exaggerating or maybe scholars have generally moved past that point in the intervening decade.</p>
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		<title>By: Kiskilili</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/09/10/the-bible-as-cultural-icon/#comment-2333</link>
		<dc:creator>Kiskilili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Sep 2006 23:45:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/09/10/the-bible-as-cultural-icon/#comment-2333</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Interesting ideas, Beijing. In the interest of time I sort of omitted the obligatory reader response discussion of the hermeneutic circle and the text as an appeal which is constructed in the act of reading. I don&#039;t believe there&#039;s an objective reading of the Bible (and biblical scholarship bears out the fairly wide range of interpretations the Bible allows). But I admit I&#039;m quite suspicious of a certain strain of postmodernist biblicists who claim, for example, that studying the original languages or examining other ancient Near Eastern texts is an utter waste of time because it&#039;s irrelevant to reading a text that means something different and personal to each individual anyway. Obviously every text means something different to everyone, and we&#039;ll never come very close to reconstructing authorial intent. We&#039;ll never understand what Israelite religion looked like from the inside; I&#039;m just not convinced the entire endeavor is therefore worth aborting. I do believe there are limits on valid interpretive strategies, and although what&#039;s plausible to one reader may be preposterous to another, nevertheless, we should at least attempt to read the text in a way that best fits the evidence as we see it, rather than the way that appeals most to us.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;(Obviously, I try to evaluate my students&#039; arguments on their merits--there&#039;s no single interpretation of the Bible to which everyone is commanded to subscribe, on peril of their grades. But, old-fashioned that I am, if a student submitted a paper saying, &quot;To me &#039;thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother&#039;s milk&#039; means &#039;separate milk and meat,&#039;&quot; I would ask for more academic rigor.)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Maybe it is arrogantly attempting to impose one&#039;s view of the Bible on others, but I have no problem with scholars arguing (civilly) for the reading of the text that makes the most sense to them (rather than retreating into relativist claims that no single interpretation can be privileged over any other, out of respect for the interpreter). At my own school I took separate courses in the history of Israelite religion and in biblical theology (a distinction that&#039;s somewhat artificial), and I&#039;m much more interested in the former. But I think the honest biblical theologian is obligated to account in some way for the scholarship the studies in Israelite religion produce, even if only to dismiss them.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting ideas, Beijing. In the interest of time I sort of omitted the obligatory reader response discussion of the hermeneutic circle and the text as an appeal which is constructed in the act of reading. I don&#8217;t believe there&#8217;s an objective reading of the Bible (and biblical scholarship bears out the fairly wide range of interpretations the Bible allows). But I admit I&#8217;m quite suspicious of a certain strain of postmodernist biblicists who claim, for example, that studying the original languages or examining other ancient Near Eastern texts is an utter waste of time because it&#8217;s irrelevant to reading a text that means something different and personal to each individual anyway. Obviously every text means something different to everyone, and we&#8217;ll never come very close to reconstructing authorial intent. We&#8217;ll never understand what Israelite religion looked like from the inside; I&#8217;m just not convinced the entire endeavor is therefore worth aborting. I do believe there are limits on valid interpretive strategies, and although what&#8217;s plausible to one reader may be preposterous to another, nevertheless, we should at least attempt to read the text in a way that best fits the evidence as we see it, rather than the way that appeals most to us.</p>
<p>(Obviously, I try to evaluate my students&#8217; arguments on their merits&#8211;there&#8217;s no single interpretation of the Bible to which everyone is commanded to subscribe, on peril of their grades. But, old-fashioned that I am, if a student submitted a paper saying, &#8220;To me &#8216;thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother&#8217;s milk&#8217; means &#8216;separate milk and meat,&#8217;&#8221; I would ask for more academic rigor.)</p>
<p>Maybe it is arrogantly attempting to impose one&#8217;s view of the Bible on others, but I have no problem with scholars arguing (civilly) for the reading of the text that makes the most sense to them (rather than retreating into relativist claims that no single interpretation can be privileged over any other, out of respect for the interpreter). At my own school I took separate courses in the history of Israelite religion and in biblical theology (a distinction that&#8217;s somewhat artificial), and I&#8217;m much more interested in the former. But I think the honest biblical theologian is obligated to account in some way for the scholarship the studies in Israelite religion produce, even if only to dismiss them.</p>
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		<title>By: John David Payne</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/09/10/the-bible-as-cultural-icon/#comment-2332</link>
		<dc:creator>John David Payne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Sep 2006 23:24:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks, K.  I must say that my most frustrating experience with the Bible is sitting through Gospel Doctrine during the Old Testament year.  We do the same couple dozen stories every four years, excluding all the rest, and most of us don&#039;t actually read those stories.  Listening to people talk in Sunday School is the most persuasive argument that &quot;the way that the Bible functions in our culture [and often in our lives] is often only loosely connected to what&#039;s actually written in it,&quot; to quote Eve.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, K.  I must say that my most frustrating experience with the Bible is sitting through Gospel Doctrine during the Old Testament year.  We do the same couple dozen stories every four years, excluding all the rest, and most of us don&#8217;t actually read those stories.  Listening to people talk in Sunday School is the most persuasive argument that &#8220;the way that the Bible functions in our culture [and often in our lives] is often only loosely connected to what&#8217;s actually written in it,&#8221; to quote Eve.</p>
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		<title>By: Kiskilili</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/09/10/the-bible-as-cultural-icon/#comment-2335</link>
		<dc:creator>Kiskilili</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Sep 2006 22:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>(Nice to see you here, Brother Payne! :))</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(Nice to see you here, Brother Payne! <img src='http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> )</p>
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