Thanks for mentioning that scripture on gifts of the spirit, RT; I also find that intriguing, and perhaps helpful for those who can’t easily say that they “know.” I really like your branch bresident’s suggestion that we need experiences with the absence of the spirit. That would seem to fit well with what we believe about mortality–that there’s something we gain from being away from the immediate presence of God.

That’s a good point, Fideline. I’ve also found that I do a lot better with church meetings when I feel like I’m able to contribute something. It’s interesting how these dynamics happen. Sometimes I’ve been in wards where I felt I was seen as a problem, a potential service project perhaps, and that made it hard to go to church. But just little things–like someone saying that they enjoyed a comment I made–can make a real difference in giving me a sense that I too have a place in the community. (Which is something I’m trying to remember more often in my interactions with others.)

Personally, I’m reminded of the discussion regarding the gifts of the spirit in D&C 46:13-14, which states that while it is given “to some . . . to know that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, “to others it is [only] given to believe on their words, that they also might have eternal life if they continue faithful. ”

This passage has always struck me. It seems to suggest that some people are actually given greater access to the spirit than others, and that, as part of some divine plan, some of us are instead tasked with the obligation of simply relying on the witness given to those around us. This seems awfully unfair. It would be easy to look at such a scenario and conclude that God loves some of His children more than others.

There was a sister in my MTC group that was the embodiment of verse 13, in that she always seemed to be having these grand spiritual experiences at times when the rest of us were struggling to feel anything at all. This began bugging me–after all, what was I doing wrong?–so I approached my branch president about it. In more general terms, I asked him why it was that I was able to feel a strong spirit during some meetings but then feel absolutely nothing during others. His response was apt. He said that one of the fundamental purposes of this existence is to condition our souls to crave the good, to cherish the spirit. This is only possible, he explained, if we have sufficient experience with its absence.

I accept his response. It makes sense to me. It still doesn’t seem to address one of the questions raised in this discussion, though, which is why some can feel the spirit more often than others. I don’t really have a clear answer for that, other than to fall back on the truism that God knows each of our souls individually, and that he gives us each according to our own individual needs. For whatever reason, it seems that there are some of us who need to feel the absence of the spirit as part of our own testing and refinement.

Getting back to the original posting regarding feeling (or not feeling) the spirit during certain meetings, I think there are a number of things possibly going on in such scenarios. First, to the extent that God is actively involved in that feeling (or lack thereof), it is quite possibly an extension of the above. Second, I don’t think that we can also discount the possibility in such cases that the meeting itself simply isn’t that good. I hate to inject a degree of cynicism into this, but there are times where the talks simply aren’t earnest or well thought out, or where teacher or class truly aren’t playing their parts in creating a rewarding class discussion.

Seriously, I wonder whether in mortality at least, we have the capacity to ever want something with our whole hearts, without any inner conflict or ambivalence.

It is indeed so very difficult. To me, that’s what consecration really means. But it is all a process. I don’t think we can just wake up one morning and say, “OK, my heart is heaven’s now and forever!” It’s a decision we have to make over and over again…which allows the Spirit to change our hearts, which makes it easier to give our hearts. But it’s not a one-time thing.

I liked Elder Eyring’s talk when he shares one specific experience when he prayed most of the night to get an answer…and finally, after what appears to have been hours, he just gave up his will and said, “OK, I don’t care what I want anymore. I want what Thou dost want.” It was then that the answer came. To me, it illustrated how very difficult it can be to really, really give up our will. That said, I think it also illustrates that it IS possible to do it.

I’m also reminded of Elder Maxwell who said that God has given us everything, so giving Him things like our means or our time aren’t really giving Him things that aren’t already His anyway. The only thing we truly have to give Him is our will.
Neal A. Maxwell, “Remember How Merciful the Lord Hath Been,” Ensign, May 2004, 44

Good grief. Why on earth am I trying to paraphrase Elder Maxwell?

“[A]s you submit your wills to God, you are giving Him the only thing you can actually give Him that is really yours to give. Don’t wait too long to find the altar or to begin to place the gift of your wills upon it! No need to wait for a receipt; the Lord has His own special ways of acknowledging.”

“In striving for ultimate submission, our wills constitute all we really have to give God anyway. The usual gifts and their derivatives we give to Him could be stamped justifiably “Return to Sender,” with a capital S. Even when God receives this one gift in return, the fully faithful will receive “all that [He] hath” (D&C 84:38). What an exchange rate!”

I liked this also, as a reminder again that it’s all a process:

“Spiritual submissiveness is not accomplished in an instant, but by the incremental improvements and by the successive use of stepping-stones. Stepping-stones are meant to be taken one at a time anyway. Eventually our wills can be “swallowed up in the will of the Father” as we are “willing to submit … even as a child doth submit to his father” (see Mosiah 15:7; Mosiah 3:19). “
Neal A. Maxwell, “Consecrate Thy Performance,” Ensign, May 2002, 36

Sigh. I miss Elder Maxwell….

Nice thought. I think it’s important to recognize that the Spirit works differently with everyone, too. I know people who can just pray and get answers. Poof! They know what to do! Poof! They feel the Atonement working immediately. The Spirit rarely, rarely (if ever) works that way with me. If I ever ask for specific help, guidance, answers, etc., they unfold. They evolve. They distill. I’m too analytical to just “get an answer” and run. I have to try it on for a while to see how it feels. To try to describe what “it just feels right” feels like can be difficult because it can vary.

“As we gain experience with the Holy Ghost, we learn that the intensity with which we feel the Spirit’s influence is not always the same. Strong, dramatic spiritual impressions do not come to us frequently. Even as we strive to be faithful and obedient, there simply are times when the direction, assurance, and peace of the Spirit are not readily recognizable in our lives. In fact, the Book of Mormon describes faithful Lamanites who “were baptized with fire and with the Holy Ghost, and they knew it not” (3 Nephi 9:20).

I appreciate the fact that he acknowledges that we don’t go around having spiritual experiences all of the time, even when we are trying to do what’s right. That said, he still reminds us that there is much we can still work on and hope for and aim toward by being more aware of when we are doing things that draw us away from the Spirit.

I recognize we are fallen men and women living in a mortal world and that we might not have the presence of the Holy Ghost with us every second of every minute of every hour of every day. However, the Holy Ghost can tarry with us much, if not most, of the time–and certainly the Spirit can be with us more than it is not with us. As we become ever more immersed in the Spirit of the Lord, we should strive to recognize impressions when they come and the influences or events that cause us to withdraw ourselves from the Holy Ghost.

Taking “the Holy Spirit for [our] guide” (D&C 45:57) is possible and is essential for our spiritual growth and survival in an increasingly wicked world. Sometimes as Latter-day Saints we talk and act as though recognizing the influence of the Holy Ghost in our lives is the rare or exceptional event. We should remember, however, that the covenant promise is that we may always have His Spirit to be with us. This supernal blessing applies to every single member of the Church who has been baptized, confirmed, and instructed to “receive the Holy Ghost.”

It’s a process, to be sure. I found his talk to be comforting and motivating at the same time. For me, this all gets back to the concept of consistency and commitment — of covenants and hope in the promises God has made to us.

I think that the problem itself is the failure to recognize that the power to change the problem lies within our own hands.

That’s fascinating, Eric; I’m coming from quite a different perspective on this one. I think that we Mormons in particular seem vulnerable to overestimating the power of the will, to buying into the idea that if we just try hard enough, we can do anything (even perfect ourselves). Often I think our challenge is to let go of the desire to be in control of it all, and to acknowledge that we can’t do it on our own.

Mark Butler, I agree; that’s what I was trying to get at earlier in noting that while we can’t force the Spirit, we are responsible for the effort we’re making to listen.

Mark IV, I really like that observation about un-selfconsciousness. The problem with the view I was describing (admittedly without offering much detail) was that grace ended up seeming kind of like magic; you were told that something mystical was happening, and you had to take that completely on faith because there was no way to detect it. I think that’s a quick way to turn religion into mumbo-jumbo. But you’ve given me another angle from which to think about whether consciousness of grace is necessarily a good thing.

…One participated in the sacraments of the church to receive grace, but this grace was essentially alien and separate from human awareness.

I don’t want to disagree with you too strenuously Lynnette, but I think that describes exactly the people I know who are most blessed by grace. They are so un-selfconscious that the goodness of their lives isn’t something they even think about.

The one thing that has never let me down in terms of spiritual sustenance is serving. Whenever we’ve moved, I’ve made it a point to find out where the really old members of the ward lived. I’ve found that reading the newspaper or playing checkers in a rest home is as good as prayer, and it makes the rest of our church practice more satisfying.

Lynette, this needs much more explanation, but let me just say that I think that the problem itself is the failure to recognize that the power to change the problem lies within our own hands.

Eve, I think I agree with everything you say in #17. The change I’m talking about is the new way of being. The type of change I’m talking about is not a change of behavior (though I think that behavior follows) but a change of heart. You can change your heart right now, if you want.

I agree with Kaimi’s agreement that the spirit itself is not what we control. But what we do control is how we choose to respond to the spirit. And it’s the sum of those responses that constitutes our spirituality.

Lynnette, I believe we have the capacity to really want it. That is, if we really want it. There’s no evidence that we don’t.

I agree that the Spirit acts upon us, but generally only with our active participation. If one does not pay attention, for example, one rarely feels the spirit. Sometimes simply pondering on what the speaker is saying, bringing related spiritual things to memory, is all that is necessary to bring the spirit in. In my experience, one must maintain a running mental commentary on everything being said and how it relates to you and others to bring in a fulness of the spirit.