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	<title>Comments on: The Possibility of Integration</title>
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		<title>By: Stephen M (Ethesis)</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1725</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen M (Ethesis)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Jul 2006 02:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1725</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;our spiritual lives should be our lives, not just a separate part of our lives.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think that is one of the tests of this life, whether or not we can fully integrate our many selves or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>&#8220;our spiritual lives should be our lives, not just a separate part of our lives.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>I think that is one of the tests of this life, whether or not we can fully integrate our many selves or not.</p>
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		<title>By: s</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1724</link>
		<dc:creator>s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jul 2006 18:42:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Fideline, I *really* like that reading of the story of Sariah.  Thanks for sharing it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fideline, I *really* like that reading of the story of Sariah.  Thanks for sharing it.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Butler</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1723</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jul 2006 06:11:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1723</guid>
		<description>All I can say is this is not a female only problem. There are many emotions that need to be dealt with on more than a superficial, don&#039;t feel that way sort of level, or worse from a pre-Job theology that assumes that all unhappiness is the consequence of sin, that adequate faith and obedience will cure all emotional ills.

The idea that an adequate faith and behavior will automatically make one happ, in the common sense, should be excised as one of the worst doctrines to ever scourge the face of the earth.  Christianity is a call to beneficial suffering.  Suffering has its benefits, but happy-smiley-all-the-time  is not usually the first one.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All I can say is this is not a female only problem. There are many emotions that need to be dealt with on more than a superficial, don&#8217;t feel that way sort of level, or worse from a pre-Job theology that assumes that all unhappiness is the consequence of sin, that adequate faith and obedience will cure all emotional ills.</p>
<p>The idea that an adequate faith and behavior will automatically make one happ, in the common sense, should be excised as one of the worst doctrines to ever scourge the face of the earth.  Christianity is a call to beneficial suffering.  Suffering has its benefits, but happy-smiley-all-the-time  is not usually the first one.</p>
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		<title>By: Fideline</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1722</link>
		<dc:creator>Fideline</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Jul 2006 01:17:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1722</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thank you, Lynette and those who made comments, for your honest and eloquent postings about authentically integrating your negative feelings into your spiritual development. Too often we only hear about the &quot;happily ever after&quot; resolution of problems, grief, pain, and sins in Ensign articles and on Sunday at Church. I think that people usually don&#039;t feel comfortable sharing feelings of weakness with strangers or acquaintances and that people are discouraged even more from doing so by the general discomfort of the audience when raw emotion is expressed. However, I personally appreciate people who do share the low points along the journey toward feeling forgiven, loved, or healed.  Then I am comforted that moments (or even periods) of doubt, despair, anger, and frustration are entirely normal and even inherent to mortal experience, and that I should not feel guilty for feeling these emotions nor should I avoid trying to sort out these emotions in prayer and with trusted friends and family.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;My favorite scriptural example of such integration is, what I call, the Complaint of Sariah in 1 Nephi 5:1-8. Sunday School lessons usually vilify Sariah for her lack of faith in the Lord&#039;s direction to send her sons back to Jerusalem to obtain the plates of brass from Laban. The footnote of the word &quot;complain&quot; in verse 2 even &quot;clarifies&quot; the articulation of Sariah&#039;s fear that her sons are dead as &quot;murmuring,&quot; and we all know from Laman and Lemuel that &quot;murmuring&quot; against God is a symptom of spiritual blindness and rebellion (1 Nephi 2:11-12, 3:31, 16:20, etc.). I&#039;ve been thinking about Sariah for several years and have come to a different conclusion about her spiritual state. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I think it is significant that the scriptural text never uses the word &quot;murmur&quot; in relation to Sariah even though &quot;murmur&quot; is used frequently and consistently elsewhere in 1 Nephi. Instead her &quot;manner of language&quot; is described as a complaint. In colloquial Modern English, complaining has lots of negative connotations and is essentially synonymous with murmuring, but the primary definition of &quot;complain&quot; stems from its Latin root &quot;plangere,&quot; which means &quot;to lament aloud, bewail, mourn, or express a grievance.&quot; While the scriptures are quite clear that we should not murmur against God, Christ himself promises us numerous times that He will succor us when we are weak, despairing, and filled with pain, that is, when we are moved to complain.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I think it is also significant that in verses 4 and 5 Lehi does not rebuke Sariah for expressing her fears in verse 2 as he and Nephi both rebuke Laman and Lemuel for their rebellious murmuring throughout 1 Nephi. Instead, his comments are described as comforting in verse 6. Here is a woman who has stood loyally by her husband through persecution, danger, and exile at the Lord&#039;s command while not being privy (at least we never hear about it) to the glorious visions and revelations of her husband and son, but who is finally pushed to the limits of her endurance by the fear of loosing her children. Lehi sensitively acknowledges her fears by not denying her statements, and he offers reassurance based on some of his own personal revelation. While Nephi does not tell us the degree to which Sariah was consoled by Lehi&#039;s words, I do not get the sense that she feels truly comforted until her sons return in verse 7. It is only then, in verse 8, that she can speak confidently (and in the first person!) of God&#039;s mercy and love made manifest in her life.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In the times of my life when I feel pain, disappointment, or fear, and the future seems to stretch out in continuation of the same, I know that if I turn towards God instead of away from Him that _over time_ the healing power of His love will soothe away those feelings until I can feel peace and hope again.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Lynette and those who made comments, for your honest and eloquent postings about authentically integrating your negative feelings into your spiritual development. Too often we only hear about the &#8220;happily ever after&#8221; resolution of problems, grief, pain, and sins in Ensign articles and on Sunday at Church. I think that people usually don&#8217;t feel comfortable sharing feelings of weakness with strangers or acquaintances and that people are discouraged even more from doing so by the general discomfort of the audience when raw emotion is expressed. However, I personally appreciate people who do share the low points along the journey toward feeling forgiven, loved, or healed.  Then I am comforted that moments (or even periods) of doubt, despair, anger, and frustration are entirely normal and even inherent to mortal experience, and that I should not feel guilty for feeling these emotions nor should I avoid trying to sort out these emotions in prayer and with trusted friends and family.</p>
<p>My favorite scriptural example of such integration is, what I call, the Complaint of Sariah in 1 Nephi 5:1-8. Sunday School lessons usually vilify Sariah for her lack of faith in the Lord&#8217;s direction to send her sons back to Jerusalem to obtain the plates of brass from Laban. The footnote of the word &#8220;complain&#8221; in verse 2 even &#8220;clarifies&#8221; the articulation of Sariah&#8217;s fear that her sons are dead as &#8220;murmuring,&#8221; and we all know from Laman and Lemuel that &#8220;murmuring&#8221; against God is a symptom of spiritual blindness and rebellion (1 Nephi 2:11-12, 3:31, 16:20, etc.). I&#8217;ve been thinking about Sariah for several years and have come to a different conclusion about her spiritual state. </p>
<p>I think it is significant that the scriptural text never uses the word &#8220;murmur&#8221; in relation to Sariah even though &#8220;murmur&#8221; is used frequently and consistently elsewhere in 1 Nephi. Instead her &#8220;manner of language&#8221; is described as a complaint. In colloquial Modern English, complaining has lots of negative connotations and is essentially synonymous with murmuring, but the primary definition of &#8220;complain&#8221; stems from its Latin root &#8220;plangere,&#8221; which means &#8220;to lament aloud, bewail, mourn, or express a grievance.&#8221; While the scriptures are quite clear that we should not murmur against God, Christ himself promises us numerous times that He will succor us when we are weak, despairing, and filled with pain, that is, when we are moved to complain.</p>
<p>I think it is also significant that in verses 4 and 5 Lehi does not rebuke Sariah for expressing her fears in verse 2 as he and Nephi both rebuke Laman and Lemuel for their rebellious murmuring throughout 1 Nephi. Instead, his comments are described as comforting in verse 6. Here is a woman who has stood loyally by her husband through persecution, danger, and exile at the Lord&#8217;s command while not being privy (at least we never hear about it) to the glorious visions and revelations of her husband and son, but who is finally pushed to the limits of her endurance by the fear of loosing her children. Lehi sensitively acknowledges her fears by not denying her statements, and he offers reassurance based on some of his own personal revelation. While Nephi does not tell us the degree to which Sariah was consoled by Lehi&#8217;s words, I do not get the sense that she feels truly comforted until her sons return in verse 7. It is only then, in verse 8, that she can speak confidently (and in the first person!) of God&#8217;s mercy and love made manifest in her life.</p>
<p>In the times of my life when I feel pain, disappointment, or fear, and the future seems to stretch out in continuation of the same, I know that if I turn towards God instead of away from Him that _over time_ the healing power of His love will soothe away those feelings until I can feel peace and hope again.</p>
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		<title>By: Lynnette</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1715</link>
		<dc:creator>Lynnette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Jul 2006 04:40:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1715</guid>
		<description>Artemis, thanks for the fabulous comments.  (And please feel free anytime to reinterpret my posts into clearer language!)  I really like what you say about how working through negative emotions makes the positive ones more authentic.  I&#039;ve noticed that when I kind of shut down my negative feelings because I don&#039;t want to deal with them, I find myself less able to feel good things, either.

m&amp;m, like annegb and S, Nephi isn&#039;t the first prophet who comes to my mind when I think of this, but I do think the passage you cite is a good one.  I find Nephi a bit relentlessly positive, especially in 1 Nephi, so I&#039;ve always appreciated that chapter.  And I think it&#039;s a good example of someone acknowledging how he&#039;s feeling, and bringing it to God.  Though as S pointed out, I also think it&#039;s worth remembering that the process often takes time, that you can&#039;t simply say &quot;rejoice, and no longer be angry,&quot; and instantly zap it away.  (Not that I think Nephi is necessarily advocating that, by the way; just that the passage might be read that way.)

annegb, I have a certain fondness for Peter.  He frequently gets it wrong, but he keeps going.  I also get a kick out of many characters in the Old Testament who are delightfully human--like Jonah, for example, who sits down and sulks when the people actually repent.

Thanks for the kind comment, Lindsey.

JWL, that&#039;s an interesting take on Captain Moroni.  I have to confess that I&#039;ve always had a rather difficult time with him.  But I think what&#039;s gotten me soured on him is the tendency to idealize his every act, and I really like the idea of viewing him as a flawed character who nevertheless stays true to the faith.

Also, I thought your restatement was pretty accurate (if a bit masculinized ;)).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Artemis, thanks for the fabulous comments.  (And please feel free anytime to reinterpret my posts into clearer language!)  I really like what you say about how working through negative emotions makes the positive ones more authentic.  I&#8217;ve noticed that when I kind of shut down my negative feelings because I don&#8217;t want to deal with them, I find myself less able to feel good things, either.</p>
<p>m&#038;m, like annegb and S, Nephi isn&#8217;t the first prophet who comes to my mind when I think of this, but I do think the passage you cite is a good one.  I find Nephi a bit relentlessly positive, especially in 1 Nephi, so I&#8217;ve always appreciated that chapter.  And I think it&#8217;s a good example of someone acknowledging how he&#8217;s feeling, and bringing it to God.  Though as S pointed out, I also think it&#8217;s worth remembering that the process often takes time, that you can&#8217;t simply say &#8220;rejoice, and no longer be angry,&#8221; and instantly zap it away.  (Not that I think Nephi is necessarily advocating that, by the way; just that the passage might be read that way.)</p>
<p>annegb, I have a certain fondness for Peter.  He frequently gets it wrong, but he keeps going.  I also get a kick out of many characters in the Old Testament who are delightfully human&#8211;like Jonah, for example, who sits down and sulks when the people actually repent.</p>
<p>Thanks for the kind comment, Lindsey.</p>
<p>JWL, that&#8217;s an interesting take on Captain Moroni.  I have to confess that I&#8217;ve always had a rather difficult time with him.  But I think what&#8217;s gotten me soured on him is the tendency to idealize his every act, and I really like the idea of viewing him as a flawed character who nevertheless stays true to the faith.</p>
<p>Also, I thought your restatement was pretty accurate (if a bit masculinized <img src='http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> ).</p>
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		<title>By: JWL</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1706</link>
		<dc:creator>JWL</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Jul 2006 22:52:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1706</guid>
		<description>If we&#039;re looking for BoM folks to exemplify what Lynnette is discussing I&#039;m going to nominate Captain Moroni.  The record shows us someone who could react with considerable anger (without apology) when sorely pressed in fulfilling his responsibilities as the Nephite commander-in-chief.  Yet throughout the most hellish circumstances he also heroically clings to his moral principles and religious faith.   I find him one of the most fascinating BoM characters not because he is a war hero but because of the flaws that the record almost inadvertently reveals in him.  

I would be interested to know if this is a fair restatement of some of what Lynnette was getting at:

When we deny our negative feelings we don&#039;t defeat them, we just drive them into our subconscious where they secretly divert us from self-knowledge and thus real self-control.  Beating ourselves up over our flaws can divert our focus from moving ahead with what we must  do.   

Maybe that is a overly masculinized action restatement of what is primarily an exploration of feelings, but hey that&#039;s what I am, deal with it! (Is that integrated or just obnoxious?) :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we&#8217;re looking for BoM folks to exemplify what Lynnette is discussing I&#8217;m going to nominate Captain Moroni.  The record shows us someone who could react with considerable anger (without apology) when sorely pressed in fulfilling his responsibilities as the Nephite commander-in-chief.  Yet throughout the most hellish circumstances he also heroically clings to his moral principles and religious faith.   I find him one of the most fascinating BoM characters not because he is a war hero but because of the flaws that the record almost inadvertently reveals in him.  </p>
<p>I would be interested to know if this is a fair restatement of some of what Lynnette was getting at:</p>
<p>When we deny our negative feelings we don&#8217;t defeat them, we just drive them into our subconscious where they secretly divert us from self-knowledge and thus real self-control.  Beating ourselves up over our flaws can divert our focus from moving ahead with what we must  do.   </p>
<p>Maybe that is a overly masculinized action restatement of what is primarily an exploration of feelings, but hey that&#8217;s what I am, deal with it! (Is that integrated or just obnoxious?) <img src='http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Lindsey</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1705</link>
		<dc:creator>Lindsey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jul 2006 16:58:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1705</guid>
		<description>Thank you for posting this, I&#039;ve been meaning to post something to this effect on my own blog, and you say very elegantly what I have a hard time putting into words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for posting this, I&#8217;ve been meaning to post something to this effect on my own blog, and you say very elegantly what I have a hard time putting into words.</p>
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		<title>By: s</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1704</link>
		<dc:creator>s</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jul 2006 15:06:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1704</guid>
		<description>m&amp;m, I think that annebg is right to say that Nephi is not the prophet I would use as my primary example for this concept--he&#039;s pretty consistently positive, upbeat, and faithful.  That being said, I think 2 Nephi 4 is the best example in Nephi&#039;s writings of what Lynette was trying to express in this post.  It is a moment where we see Nephi willing to admit to failures, weaknesses, etc.

I think what the Nephi example doesn&#039;t capture, though, are those moments where we can&#039;t quickly turn to the positive.  There are many moments where we say &quot;I feel pain,&quot; we bring that pain to God, and it takes time before we feel the blessings of the Atonement and are able to rejoice.  I think what Lynnette is trying to say (and she can correct me if I&#039;m wrong) is that it&#039;s *okay* to have those moments of doubt and fear and pain, and it&#039;s okay if the happiness is not immediate.  What&#039;s most important is to bring that pain into dialogue with God and the rest of your life so that you can begin to figure out how to move on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>m&amp;m, I think that annebg is right to say that Nephi is not the prophet I would use as my primary example for this concept&#8211;he&#8217;s pretty consistently positive, upbeat, and faithful.  That being said, I think 2 Nephi 4 is the best example in Nephi&#8217;s writings of what Lynette was trying to express in this post.  It is a moment where we see Nephi willing to admit to failures, weaknesses, etc.</p>
<p>I think what the Nephi example doesn&#8217;t capture, though, are those moments where we can&#8217;t quickly turn to the positive.  There are many moments where we say &#8220;I feel pain,&#8221; we bring that pain to God, and it takes time before we feel the blessings of the Atonement and are able to rejoice.  I think what Lynnette is trying to say (and she can correct me if I&#8217;m wrong) is that it&#8217;s *okay* to have those moments of doubt and fear and pain, and it&#8217;s okay if the happiness is not immediate.  What&#8217;s most important is to bring that pain into dialogue with God and the rest of your life so that you can begin to figure out how to move on.</p>
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		<title>By: annegb</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1703</link>
		<dc:creator>annegb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jul 2006 13:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1703</guid>
		<description>M&amp;M, I, too, found that confusing till I read Artemis&#039; post carefully.

I wouldn&#039;t equate Nephi with this, I would equate Alma the Younger or Enos.  No, maybe, who&#039;s the most human saint?  Peter?  He was a bugger, but boy, wouldn&#039;t you like him to have your back?  J. Golden Kimball?

No, it has to be somebody who accepts themselves, lets themselves feel.  Marjorie.  I made her into my imaginary fairy Godmother while I was still looking for God and I have her picture on my desk, saying, &quot;Save the relationship!&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>M&amp;M, I, too, found that confusing till I read Artemis&#8217; post carefully.</p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t equate Nephi with this, I would equate Alma the Younger or Enos.  No, maybe, who&#8217;s the most human saint?  Peter?  He was a bugger, but boy, wouldn&#8217;t you like him to have your back?  J. Golden Kimball?</p>
<p>No, it has to be somebody who accepts themselves, lets themselves feel.  Marjorie.  I made her into my imaginary fairy Godmother while I was still looking for God and I have her picture on my desk, saying, &#8220;Save the relationship!&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: mullingandmusing</title>
		<link>http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1702</link>
		<dc:creator>mullingandmusing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Jul 2006 06:48:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/2006/06/30/the-possibility-of-integration/#comment-1702</guid>
		<description>OK, so I&#039;m still trying to internalize what this integration thing means. Might 2 Ne. 4 be an example of this? Nephi rejoices in all he has seen and experienced, and yet is frustrated by his sins and weaknesses (including anger). So, he doesn&#039;t ignore or try to stifle those negatives per se, but he doesn&#039;t dwell. He counters the negative with thoughts of how God has been merciful to Nephi &lt;i&gt;in spite&lt;/i&gt; of his sins and shortcomings. And then he takes that reality a step further, turning to the Lord to help him not &quot;droop in sin&quot; or to allow the adversary to &quot;destroy [his] peace and afflict [his] soul&quot;  any longer, but to help him overcome his weaknesses. I am thinking that perhaps this is an ideal model of what to do with our negative stuff. Don&#039;t ignore it, but don&#039;t enable it, either. Still try to overcome it, with the Lord&#039;s help, pleading for His deliverance from our enemies, and the enemies within. And all along, recognize the tender mercies and the love of God in spite of our weaknesses. Is this even close to a representation of what has been discussed here? :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, so I&#8217;m still trying to internalize what this integration thing means. Might 2 Ne. 4 be an example of this? Nephi rejoices in all he has seen and experienced, and yet is frustrated by his sins and weaknesses (including anger). So, he doesn&#8217;t ignore or try to stifle those negatives per se, but he doesn&#8217;t dwell. He counters the negative with thoughts of how God has been merciful to Nephi <i>in spite</i> of his sins and shortcomings. And then he takes that reality a step further, turning to the Lord to help him not &#8220;droop in sin&#8221; or to allow the adversary to &#8220;destroy [his] peace and afflict [his] soul&#8221;  any longer, but to help him overcome his weaknesses. I am thinking that perhaps this is an ideal model of what to do with our negative stuff. Don&#8217;t ignore it, but don&#8217;t enable it, either. Still try to overcome it, with the Lord&#8217;s help, pleading for His deliverance from our enemies, and the enemies within. And all along, recognize the tender mercies and the love of God in spite of our weaknesses. Is this even close to a representation of what has been discussed here? <img src='http://zelophehadsdaughters.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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